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By now a lot of people have heard about AFS Trinity's plug-in hybrid system. They say that they've modified a regular Saturn Vue Greenline Hybrid to get a 40-mile all-electric range before the internal combustion engine ever kicks in to help power the car.
If you assume that the car is plugged in at night, and a trip is about 50 miles, the car would then get about 150 mpg (or around 30 mpg for the last 10 miles).
So the question is, if AFS Trinity is doing it now, why isn't everyone else doing it? Well, I can't say anything for sure, but I spent about a half an hour talking to the CTO of AFS Trinity today, and I think there are some good reasons.
But first, let me say that I think AFS Trinity's technology is interesting...impressive even. Instead of requiring ultra-high power output from the batteries to give the car the torque it needs to accelerate from zero to seventy, the batteries actualy slowly charge ultracapacitors, which then quickly discharge to the engine. That's a smart move because, right now, cheap Li-ion batteries would explode if they had that much power being sucked from them all at once.
However, the AFS Trinity system requires several things that make it less desireable for market. First, I imagine they have a HUGE stack of batteries in the back of that Vue (they wouldn't let me peak.) But it's very likely that storage space would be significantly limited. Second, you need both batteries and ultracaps, further increasing cost, weight, and volume.
Third, the AFS system needs a very large and expensive electric motor so that it can have an EV-only mode, but it also needs a large and powerful internal combustion engine so that the car can operate in hybrid mode. Car companies have been attempting to avoid the weight, cost, and volume associated with that by having either a small electric engine (most hybrids) or small internal combustion engine (the Volt).
As it is, I would guess that this system would increase the cost of the (already more expensive) Greenline Vue more than $15,000. That is, however, a pure guess. AFS wouldn't discuss costs with me, and any numbers they've given elsewhere are too low to even quote here.
In the end the ultracap / battery mix makes good sense, but it's going to take a major (possibly overseas) auto company licensing the technology and implementing it on a large scale before we'll know for sure what all the kinks are, how much space it will require, and what the real costs are going to be. I can't help but wish them luck.
One side of the story from Green Car Congress, The Other Side from AutoBlogGreen
Note: GM paid for my travel to attend the Detroit Auto Show.
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written by EV, January 16, 2008
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written by Mark R., January 16, 2008
If you drive less than 40 miles a day, which most people do, then the numbers are accurate and I have no problem with that. Now if only my Tacoma could do that I'd be in heaven.
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written by jello5929, January 16, 2008
Then we can quote accurate numbers by taking the battery capacity, multiplying it by that conversion factor.
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written by EV, January 16, 2008
In 2007 oil fired plants accounted for less than 1.25% of all US electricity produced. Most of this was done at peak power consumption (10-4) during the summer. These cars would normally be recharged at night when these oil plants would not be on.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1.html
Depending on the type of oil, it has 33-40kwh. Assume 50% efficiency (not out of the question for a large generator) and say, 17-20 kwh/gallon at the car. The car looks like it gets roughly 2.1 miles/kwh, so well over 35mpg equivalent if the electricity came solely from oil, which does not happen.
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written by jello5929, January 16, 2008
But until we are 100% nuke/solar/wind/etc, you have traded 30mpg from the car internal combustion engine for 35mpg equivalent from the grid/batteries.
That's a lot of extra toxic waste from batteries to get 3mpg improvement over the stock saturn vue.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for plugin hybrid. But we need to evaluate them based on equivalent mpg eco and oil consumption impact. Not on miles travels for gallon pumped.
No car gets infinite mpg equivalent eco impact - and that's what you'll get if you quote a 30mile trip.
Now if you start quoting that it gets X miles per $ spent on energy or Y miles per ton of CO2 emission from ICE vs coal plant then you are saying something. But right now these manufacturers are lying with snakeoil mpg numbers. And in the end that's bad for everyone.
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written by EV, January 16, 2008
Otherwise, by your logic, I could claim that all your power comes from oil as there is an oil generator hooked up to the grid right now. This is regardless of where the power is actually coming from.
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written by jello5929, January 16, 2008
Since oil supplies the last marginal kW, any car recharging on the grid rather than using an ICE is consuming that marginal kW. If it wasn't charging, the oil wouldn't be consumed at the power plant instead it would be consumed at the gasoline refinery.
By your logic, I can travel 41 miles and get 1230 mpg. And I can travel 39 miles and get infinite mpg. It's snake oil.
For plugin vehicles the valid quotes are miles/dollar and miles/ton-CO2. If manufacturers want to quote mpg equivalents, they need to do it based on some sort of conversion factor based on oil generation.
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written by EV, January 16, 2008
Also, most electric vehicles recharging off the grid will do so at night, when the oil generators are not running. Hence no usage of oil for charging the cars.
By your logic, I can travel 41 miles and get 1230 mpg. And I can travel 39 miles and get infinite mpg. It's snake oil.
Not snakeoil, just logic when looking at what supplies the elctricity. If no oil is consumed in recharging the vehicle, mpg->infinity.
Miles/ton-CO2 still doesn't work, as how the electricity is generated will depend on the CO2 produced and the cost of a kwh varies from area to area. It's hard to choose a conversion factor based on oil, there are too many variables involved.
Miles/kwh is the best you could do. Would you agree to that? It's the number I wish they would use.
By the way, Li-Ion batteries are very efficient at recharging (near 100%), so the recharge amount is nearly indistinguishable from the amount drawn off the grid.
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written by Mark R., January 16, 2008
your trippin' You are assuming you use some oil for your electric. Thats bogus, for example if my energy provider is www.greenmountainenergy.com/te...tes.shtml I'm either using 100% wind or 90&#xhy;dro & 10% wind. Maybe you don't have a choice of green energy but where I live we do.
Miles/dollars or miles/ton-CO2 is a better way to calculate the number. An auto manufacturer has no control over what energy source you use to get electric so your other formula is bogus. You can get any mix of green energy or coal based energy so the options are to numerous to make it realistic for the auto industry to track. I agree with the way this company calculates it. If you want some simple miles/ton-CO2 fine. But if you don't like the mpg calc. get over it because, if I use greenmountainenergy.com for my provider and never drove over 40 miles btw charge. I would get almost infinite mpg. unless you want to calc. volume of air used to generate electric to convert to miles or gallons of water through the hydro generator ;)
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written by Farhad Abdolian, January 17, 2008
Yeah, I know in the country of the blinds, the man with an eye is the king, in the country where SUV are the norm, and people drive less than 40 miles in useless TANKS this car sounds like a present fallen from sky, but come on man, you who started this site should know better.
I am all for alternative energy, just signed myself for the AirCar and will be happy to receive one when it arrives, hopefully in 2008, but I do not buy the marketing crap from car companies who are doing everything to keep the current trend of selling garbage to the public by painting them green.
Best regards,
/Farhad
Antibes, France
PS. You can find more information about the air car at:
http://www.theaircar.com/onecatsEN.html
It is nothing for the "mine is bigger than yours" ego-centric drive mentality of 'average consumer' in the US, but it is an excellent car for small cities in Europe.
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Come on, instead of giving the full value for the combined battery and full tank drive and tell us what the real MPG of this stupid piece of crap is, you advertise this as an environmentally friendly car?
I am really disappointed at this, I really thought you guys were here to promote environment not every piece of crap that is coming out as eco-friendly.