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**Note** The US News Blog Post has been corrected...though not really to the extend I would have liked to see.
OK, so, there's a bit of a problem with the internet, or at least the way journalists are dealing with it. I'll be the first to recognize that, and this is a grade A example of that.
I just read an article at the Huffington Post that said scooters pollute more than Hummers. That article cites a US News and World Report blog post which, in turn, cites a Chicago Tribune advice column.
The problem is that the original question was "do two-stroke scooters pollute more than Hummers" the answer to which (depending on your definition of "pollute" is yes. The problem with this is that the vast majority of scooters sold in America today have four-stroke engines, just like cars, and most of them meet strict European emissions regulations, since Europe is the largest scooter market.
A U.S. News and World Report Green Blog then took the Tribune advice column and made a blanket statement implying that, unless they are electric, scooters produce more polluting gasses than Hummers. That, of course, is a blatantly false. They even cite Vespas specifically, which is hilarious given that they average 60 mpg and haven't used 2-stroke engines for almost a decade.
Go to your local scooter dealer, see if you can find a single 2-stroke scooter on the lot. Excluding mo-peds, you'll be out of luck.
Please join me in emailing the US News Blog editor to tell them to note that they were wrong on the articles, so google searchers don't give up on their scooter-buying dreams. I take that back...our overwhelming force got the change implemented in less than 24 hours...good work y'all.
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written by j1mmyc_, April 12, 2009
Scooters will pollute less than a Hummer both since the fuel used per mile is less, and since a driver of a scooter is less likely to use their vehicle to travel as far. Scooters also require far less material resources during manufacture than a Hummer. Of course four people traveling to a destination will need 2 scooters compared to a single Hummer - or perhaps they might choose some form of public transportation...
Additionally if a city were to plan for smaller vehicles such as scooters and compact cars in mind rather than providing massive parking spaces and lots for over-sized vehicles the result will be more compact, more efficient, more transit oriented, and less polluting cities.
Additionally if a city were to plan for smaller vehicles such as scooters and compact cars in mind rather than providing massive parking spaces and lots for over-sized vehicles the result will be more compact, more efficient, more transit oriented, and less polluting cities.
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written by N., April 13, 2009
I think this is just an example of sensationalized journalism, where journalists go for "shocking headlines" without really checking the facts. What a shame.
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written by Yael, April 13, 2009
This is just like the time two intrepid Washington Post journalists uncovered the Watergate Scandal.
Except I couldn't care less.
Except I couldn't care less.
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written by Steve A., April 13, 2009
"Go to your local scooter dealer, see if you can find a single 2-stroke scooter on the lot. Excluding mo-peds, you'll be out of luck."
Not quite. My local Ducati Dealer sells 'Genuine Scooter Company' Scooters, including their 'Stella' model. They are 150cc 2-stroke scooters and are available in every state except CA. My wife owns a 2006 model, and it's quite fun and has a top speed of 60+ mph. But yes, it is very, very bad for the environment.
http://www.genuinescooters.com/scooters/stella/stella.html
Not quite. My local Ducati Dealer sells 'Genuine Scooter Company' Scooters, including their 'Stella' model. They are 150cc 2-stroke scooters and are available in every state except CA. My wife owns a 2006 model, and it's quite fun and has a top speed of 60+ mph. But yes, it is very, very bad for the environment.
http://www.genuinescooters.com/scooters/stella/stella.html
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written by Bill, April 13, 2009
Yes, 2-stroke pollution is bad, and there are still many 2-stroke scooters for sale (although in the significant minority of scooters now days). But there is a big difference that everyone forgets about...the quantity of exhaust gases. That huge displacement V-8 makes a lot more "clean" exhaust than the relatively small amount of dirty 2-stroke smoke. I don't claim to know how they compare in real life though.
Also, the quantity of exhaust used by scooters is probably minuscule compared to all the 2-stroke lawn equipment out there.
Also, the quantity of exhaust used by scooters is probably minuscule compared to all the 2-stroke lawn equipment out there.
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written by Steve A., April 13, 2009
Bill,
In one of the more recent Bill Nye's 'Stuff Happens' episodes on Planet Green, he states that using a 2-stroke leaf blower for 30 minutes "pollutes as much as driving a car for 2200 miles."
A typical 2-stroke dumps as much as 30% of their fuel/oil out the tailpipe, unburned. Where a modern car has a fairly clean burning system of electronic ignition, emissions controls, timing controls and a catalytic converter.
Total CO2 per mile driven may be in the 2-stroke scooter's favor, however the other, more directly hazardous to human health emissions are vastly higher. The average hydrocarbon emission of a 2-stroke, per mile, is 10-22 times higher than an SUV.
In one of the more recent Bill Nye's 'Stuff Happens' episodes on Planet Green, he states that using a 2-stroke leaf blower for 30 minutes "pollutes as much as driving a car for 2200 miles."
A typical 2-stroke dumps as much as 30% of their fuel/oil out the tailpipe, unburned. Where a modern car has a fairly clean burning system of electronic ignition, emissions controls, timing controls and a catalytic converter.
Total CO2 per mile driven may be in the 2-stroke scooter's favor, however the other, more directly hazardous to human health emissions are vastly higher. The average hydrocarbon emission of a 2-stroke, per mile, is 10-22 times higher than an SUV.
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written by Mark Haines, April 14, 2009
While they may not pollute as much as a hummer, I am still curious as to how much they pollute. Are they still an environmental choice?
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written by Funtomas, April 14, 2009
By linking the article, you just increase Google's Page-rank of that page.
However, by pointing to this issue, people my start demanding cleaner scooters. And guess what, I bet the electric scooters, by the way already in market, will be first to start the inevitable electric-powered commuting revolution.
Is Europe really the largest scooter market? I beg to differ as I believe the triumph belongs to Asia.
However, by pointing to this issue, people my start demanding cleaner scooters. And guess what, I bet the electric scooters, by the way already in market, will be first to start the inevitable electric-powered commuting revolution.
Is Europe really the largest scooter market? I beg to differ as I believe the triumph belongs to Asia.
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written by Gregory, April 14, 2009
This blog's horrendous journalism should be fixed before criticizing others.
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written by Zaharastra, April 14, 2009
Do you mean "extent" rather than "extend"? You could at least bother to be precise if you're going to incite a flame war for no reason other than to garner page hits.
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written by ABQ Bear, April 14, 2009
Wow. Just got rid of that two-stroke ET2. Lovin' the GTS 250!
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written by edgerunner, April 20, 2009
It seems to me that 2 stroke scooters still easily number out 4 stroke models here in Holland. As a cyclist every encouter with a 2 stroke monster is one to many. Besides their high pollution they also excel in very disturbing noise and a long lasting odour nuisance.. I wish those evil creations will be forbidden globally asap
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written by matt kennedy, April 21, 2009
What funny people you are. How can so many read an article and yet not understand it? Too many of you seem to be stuck on the "yeah-it's-dirtier-but-the-engine-is-teeny-weeny-compared-to-the-engine-of-a-big-bad-Hummer" notion.
Steve A gets it, and it's not about engine size. The SIMPLE fact is this(Sorry for the shouting but I feel the need!): IF YOU RUN A 2-STROKE ENGINE and A HUMMER ENGINE FOR A MINUTE, THE 2-STROKE WILL EMIT FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAAAAAAR MORE POLLUTANTS (esp. toxic ones) THAN THE HUMMER!
It's not 'proportional', it's ACTUAL!
As Steve A. quoted:
I'm an ex (classic) Vespa owner, and I LOVE them. But I wouldn't ride anything but a 4-stroke from now on.
m@
(1) Footnote: Europe apparently IS the biggest market for Scooters (for now). Asia has more motorcycles and mo-peds.
(2) Leaf-blowers are one of my most hated devices ever. they're noisy, VERY polluting and they don't work well anyway. USE A BLOODY BROOM AND A RAKE AMERICA! (Yes, we have them here too but it's America which is in love with the lazy, inefficient decadence of the leaf-blower so I'm blaming YOU! ;-) )
Steve A gets it, and it's not about engine size. The SIMPLE fact is this(Sorry for the shouting but I feel the need!): IF YOU RUN A 2-STROKE ENGINE and A HUMMER ENGINE FOR A MINUTE, THE 2-STROKE WILL EMIT FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAAAAAAR MORE POLLUTANTS (esp. toxic ones) THAN THE HUMMER!
It's not 'proportional', it's ACTUAL!
As Steve A. quoted:
"The average hydrocarbon emission of a 2-stroke, per mile, is 10-22 times higher than an SUV.".
I'm an ex (classic) Vespa owner, and I LOVE them. But I wouldn't ride anything but a 4-stroke from now on.
m@
(1) Footnote: Europe apparently IS the biggest market for Scooters (for now). Asia has more motorcycles and mo-peds.
(2) Leaf-blowers are one of my most hated devices ever. they're noisy, VERY polluting and they don't work well anyway. USE A BLOODY BROOM AND A RAKE AMERICA! (Yes, we have them here too but it's America which is in love with the lazy, inefficient decadence of the leaf-blower so I'm blaming YOU! ;-) )
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written by Dan Grinde, April 25, 2009
Happy Earth-Minute, Hank and Everyone...hmmm leaf-blowers...ask the Permaculture people about lawns?...scooters are closer to my heart as I once worshipped the Lambretta 175...I had to settle for a used 4-stroke Triumph 200cc. I still feel a bit safer on a "motorcycle".
The oil-mixed 2-stroke is a sad thing indeed. Even so, a major reduction in overall petroleum consumption must remain high priority. There are several REALLY COOL pedal/electric bicycles available...plug-in at work or overnight.
The observation that a NEW water-cooled 4-stroke (Hummer?? OK, I guess...)pollutes less than an ancient Yamaha or a Sears weedeater is hard to argue with. Sadly, many of us know that working folks try to squeeze 2 or 3 HUNDRED THOUSAND miles out of their cars and trucks...in Japan many motors with more than 50K Km on them must be rebuilt, or even better, dismantled and shipped to the USA as "rebuilt".
I agree with the crowd here: The bicycle is tops; electric bikes and scooters go farther faster; 4-strokes are much cleaner...the smoggers must be recycled...
The oil-mixed 2-stroke is a sad thing indeed. Even so, a major reduction in overall petroleum consumption must remain high priority. There are several REALLY COOL pedal/electric bicycles available...plug-in at work or overnight.
The observation that a NEW water-cooled 4-stroke (Hummer?? OK, I guess...)pollutes less than an ancient Yamaha or a Sears weedeater is hard to argue with. Sadly, many of us know that working folks try to squeeze 2 or 3 HUNDRED THOUSAND miles out of their cars and trucks...in Japan many motors with more than 50K Km on them must be rebuilt, or even better, dismantled and shipped to the USA as "rebuilt".
I agree with the crowd here: The bicycle is tops; electric bikes and scooters go farther faster; 4-strokes are much cleaner...the smoggers must be recycled...
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written by L, April 25, 2009
did anybody ever settle on a definition for pollution? seriously!
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