DEC 02

Why do/should we care so much about carbon? It's just another thing we have to fear.

We're just delaying the inevitable, so have fun, do what YOU want, and live your life.

_denise

Hmmm... "why do/should we care about carbon"? Where have you been living???!!!

All the CO2 we release into the atmosphere is leading to global warming. This will have major, mostly negative, impacts on the earth. It's not something we necessarily have to "fear", we just have to deal with it. Relying on things like the internet rather than face-to-face or paper oriented situations, is one way we can deal.

And yes, the world will end... one day. It is inevitable, but frankly... I'd like to breathe for as long as possible. Oh, and it's quite easy to have fun, do what you want, and be environmentally friendly...

And... this is the wrong site to comment on if you don't care about the environment...

with Jen. Why shouldn't we care? And seriously, people who don't give a damn about something always tend to flock to places where those who do care thrive. What is with that.

I'm glad the internet is doing it's part. Over the years I have noticed much of my communication and consumer related needs have shifted over to eco-friendly gracefully by utilizing the internet. I never liked buying digital music but now it makes so much more sense. Skype and Stickam are the greatest solutions to video and phone conferencing. I also don't remember the last time I purchased a newspaper. Granted using our computers themselves is using energy and releasing carbon but at the same time it's nice to have everything compacted into one device.

Clearly emissions must be lower with e-commerce. First off, instead of a two way trip to the store, deliveries are only one way. And of course, shipping companies are about a billion times more efficient than you or I in our cars filled at 5% capacity.

But what about the physical waste produced by e-commerce. For example, when a publisher ships books to a brick and mortar store, they shipped 20-30 books efficiently in a single box. However, when I order a book from Amazon, I get my book wrapped in almost the same amount of cardboard and plastic as that shipment to the B&M store. I know most larger stores recycle their packaging cardboard; I, however, lives in backward-Philly where I can only recycle glass and aluminum.

Plus, sometimes it is nice to actually interact with people...

So I guess the morals of the story are:

1) Environmental accounting makes my head spin
2) Philadelphia's recycling program is embarrassing
3) People are good

Ok, I believe the gist of this article, but add back the amount of carbon produced by all the servers running the Internet. LOTS of articles recently about this...some here on ecogeek?

I only had the briefest of skims through the document, but didn't see anything about the massive energy requirements of data centers, and the 1 billion PCs in the world, and my cable modem and wireless router which stay switched on 24x7 because I can't be bothered to scrabble around behind the TV every night. Then there is the Co2 produced by the entire computer manufacturing industry, the office buildings full of programmers etc etc etc.

I'm sure that is probably a net saving, and I think that the Internet is the most wonderful invention, and it has the potential to considerable easy the burden of Co2 reduction, but it just goes to show that climate change / Co2 related arguments are always more complex that one might think..

Fair and square, the internet is doing its share. The energy and pollution PER ITEM SOLD is down as a result.

Are consumption and overall energy use and pollution related to those articles down? Because that is what really matters.

The internet is only an example of technology that COULD reduce the impact of certain products. Nevertheless, the internet requires energy and if people buy more or spend their gained time with more polluting activities (traveling, snowmobiling, etc.) the internet has not done a darn thing.

It is great that one can shop with less impact, and do research with less energy. The big question though remains, is NOT SHOPPING better? Is the research done worth the time and energy? Sure, in the past it was much more difficult and time consuming to do research. Now we are able to find pictures and video of people doing dumb, disgusting, and destructive things in a jiffy. Is that real progress? Same with e-mail: Great to have the tool. I could not function as well as now without it. However, I would say 95% of messages sent could be eliminated without a real loss but with significant energy savings. The garbage that is sent and received via e-mail was not sent through snail-mail. The numbers are just guesses. You get the point. The energy consumption per item may be down, but is the overall consumption PER PERSON up or down?

And I have not even mentioned the energy required for equipment and its manufacturing plus constant replacement because it is out-of-date so quickly and the hazardous waste issues in connection with consumer electronics. Where can we find that amount of energy and carbon emission in the equation?

I am a big proponent of using the internet in many instances. But it is a tool that can be used wisely for the things that are necessary, or it can be used wastefully. It is the user that matters, not the tool he/she uses.

BTW, the site below is wind-powered. Probably better, but not perfect.

Karsten
--
http://www.polluteless.com

I recall that Al Gore invented the internet! Awesome job Al.

do you even know how much your compute, monitor, router, and modem use. what about the severs?

Does that take into account the emissions generated by all the server farms? Just google alone uses an estimated 20 megawatts to power their server farms...

Well, those things go down, but other things will go up. How does one get on the internet? Well you need computers. Coal, oil, natural gas all make computers, and get products from point A to point B. Landfills will receive more toxic computers. More computers will be bought consuming ever more energy that 60% still comes from the worst pollutant of all, coal.

Plus the internet is made up of hundreds of thousands of servers and supercomputers that only grow daily that eat tons of electricity compared to household computers.

It will cut down on a lot of things, but many other things will increase that will just end up balancing the scales.

God, some people are morons. Got a degree in physics? Chemistry? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? No. You just parrot stuff you hear, with no knowledge of what you're talking about. You enjoy being frightened. Newsflash: this is a huge scam. Buy your carbon offsets, ride a bike, feel good in your idiocy.

I also question whether there is, indeed, a significant net decrease in carbon emissions here (pun intended).

And will the lie that Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet ever die? Dude, when snopes pwns you, you know you've got old news:http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp.

I've been lied to enough about helping the Earth (i.e. Recycling and PETA). It's just a joke. It's a way for big business to make more money.

Just live your life and have fun. Don't worry about anything.

The Earth is billions of years old. It'll be billions of years older.

Adam

---

Enrich your life -> http://www.BecomingAPUA.com

The internet is for porn! :)

I think this is wonderful. I think many people new the internet had the ability to replace current, outdated, methods doing things, such as telecommuting; but the fact that it will help save our environment and maintain our productivity is great!

Computers/Internet/Communications are also causing a shift into nighttime living. Where the lack of daytime light and warmth needs to be supplemented by using more energy.
Petrol stations, grocery stores, food shops, etc stay open lit up like brothels to cater for a barely viable trade. Trains run at partial capacity so the few aren't left stranded.
A whole new system of energy inefficiencies arise due to technology workers.

This is great news! I'm printing out 10,000 copies of this article and mailing it to my friends!

The development of computer technology has a very toxic and generally destructive legacy. This is why San Jose in the Silicon Valley has one of the most polluted water tables. And, for all the good computers do by helping people spread good information... they do an incredible amount of harm in the hands of corporate/military scientists. The improvements to war, strip-mining, sweatshops, etc. IMHO offsets most of the good that could be done by any radical types.

Anyway... as technology advances it is not unreasonable to expect that more dangerous forms will be developed and made easier to use. I also suggest that computers facilitate consumerism rather than stem it. They create wealth and present an outlet for more people to shop. Increased marketing ability, production efficiency, transportation logistics, etc. Others have already addressed the manufacturing costs you left out -- and then you can add in all the peripheral items that are used hand in hand with these machines, printers, keyboards, etc. Much of this stuff ends up in the landfill.

Here are the websites which I thought would be featured somewhere before or after the comments...
www.awok.org
&
http://www.metroactive.com/metro/03.21.07/e-waste-0712.html

Some interesting and some daft responses, for example the adoration of Al Gore as the Godhead of the environmental movement makes me nervous as I never wholly trust the motives of any politician and I am old enough to remember his families involvement in the PRMC and the harm that has done to freedom (google it). Plus I truly believe that the answer to these issues isn't in some celeb or leader but in fact in a ground swell of communities choosing to make a difference, and that is why the internet is so powerful in that it can serve to unite geographically diverse but ideological neighbours. But the focus must always be on the issues that effect us and not at creating eco-celebs and allowing them to usurp the issue for there own political and personal gain, but if it helps to solve the issue and unite and inform an otherwise distracted majority then I'll bite my lip and put up with it.

Well, i guess you are all much more informed than i am! However i'd like to share with you one quote that we have here in Greece!
" Metron Ariston", "Μέτρον Άριστον"

Meaning that we should do everything with a measure, if you understand what i mean!

Internet has been a great help for the environment! I am not a scientist but even if lots of energy is spent to send an email, for sure paper, pen ink, stamps, gasoline to transport these letters to destinations etc. would be spent if we still followed the traditional way of mailing.

Google, sure, consumes a lot of energy and Silicon Valley is polluting and polluted. On the other hand have you heard about the great energy plan that Google is up to? Huge company, huge waste, huge effort!!

Everything is linked to each other, it's a chain!

The easiest think we can do is to recycle, make a small effort for the protection of the environment, which is not at all difficult,stop beeing lazy and most of all give the right education to our children.(im 22 years old, no children yet but for sure i'll do it)
They are the future and they will act according to the values WE'll give to them!

And to the people that just want to have fun and don't care i would just advise them to wake up from their #### reality and realise that food, water, shelter were, are and will always be our only basic needs.
So if you don't care about your shelter, the Earth, shut up and care cause it's my shelter too and i don't want ignorant and selfish people pollute my back yard!

The Internet itself is not an ecological solution to the enviroment because of one simple issue: it does not use natural solutions to reduce the pollution factors. The internet is like a coin: has two sides and not all aspects create positive effects.[ex:porno industry]