Jeff Stein, of the University of Michigan, believes that electric cars can do more than just reduce our dependence on oil; he believes they can help power our homes as well. His idea, loosely named “vehicle to grid” - or V2G for short – is that as long as enough electric cars are parked at one time, those cars can be used to store electricity from the grid and can be tapped when the utility needs that extra kick of power.
Such a system, if successfully implemented, would be wonderful for many reasons. Firstly, electric utilities always need to make sure that they have extra megawatts of reserve power, in case demand suddenly spikes. Usually, they provide that power via old fashioned plants. If they could rely on that extra power to come from V2G, those plants wouldn’t be needed. There would also be economic incentives for V2G participants – companies performing V2G simulations have showed that a typical customer could earn $300 a month (presumably this takes into account expenditure on extra electricity to recharge a battery that has been used for the grid).
On the other hand, questions about the idea abound. What if I get back to my car, and my battery is half dead when I need it? In theory, software could be written to prevent that from happening, but it seems likely that both the utility and the drivers would be skeptical about getting stranded. Also, batteries are usually designed with the assumption that they will be filled to the top, and then drained. Isn’t it possible that the constant partial filling and partial draining will hurt the battery itself?
The NSF, at least, seems to think that the possible benefits outweigh the risks. They have given Stein $2 million to study and develop this technology. Meanwhile, a California company called AC Propulsion has already run some experiments that demonstrate the theory on a small scale. Perhaps by the time EV’s become mainstream we will know if this works or not.
Via LiveScience
Image via peakenergy.blogspot
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written by Evan, November 13, 2008
This idea has been around for a little while, right? Is it just that Stein has a more thought-out infrastructure/technology solution which would garner a story on the blog and funding from the NSF?
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written by EV, November 13, 2008
Oy, this could cause some problems. This whole idea would cycle the batteries more often than they would normally, decreasing their lifespan. What do you want to bet any warranty covering the batteries is going to be contingent upon the warrantor either getting a cut or it's going to be null and void?
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written by judec, November 14, 2008
Reality regarding both the global and domestic energy situation is starting to set in. A recently released national poll of U.S. opinion leaders by RT Strategies indicates very strong support for coal. The findings include:
·72% support the use of coal to generate electricity while only 22% oppose
·69% say coal is a fuel of the future
·82% believe we need to rely more on American coal for our energy needs
·80% say American coal can help lead us to energy independence
·By a three-to-one margin over the next priority, the number-one energy initiative for the next president is reducing dependence on foreign oil
Coal's favorability represents a significant increase over the past year and the highest level of support since polling began almost 10 years ago.
Coal is already America's greatest energy resource and supplies half of our electricity. But we need to do more to use clean coal to deliver energy security and environmental solutions. Coal can also be converted to liquid fuels and natural gas using established technologies.
Clean coal means new, efficient coal-fueled power plants with hundreds of millions of dollars of environmental technologies, like the Prairie State Energy Campus in Southern Illinois which has a 15% lower CO2 footprint than existing plants. And clean coal can also turn the vision of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) into reality as we solve the technology and regulatory hurdles to let America capture and store CO2.
President -elect Obama's “New Energy for America” plan explicitly states that his administration will “develop and deploy clean coal technology ... as we power our economy with domestically produced and secure energy”. That fits right in with the growing public recognition that clean coal can power our future.
·72% support the use of coal to generate electricity while only 22% oppose
·69% say coal is a fuel of the future
·82% believe we need to rely more on American coal for our energy needs
·80% say American coal can help lead us to energy independence
·By a three-to-one margin over the next priority, the number-one energy initiative for the next president is reducing dependence on foreign oil
Coal's favorability represents a significant increase over the past year and the highest level of support since polling began almost 10 years ago.
Coal is already America's greatest energy resource and supplies half of our electricity. But we need to do more to use clean coal to deliver energy security and environmental solutions. Coal can also be converted to liquid fuels and natural gas using established technologies.
Clean coal means new, efficient coal-fueled power plants with hundreds of millions of dollars of environmental technologies, like the Prairie State Energy Campus in Southern Illinois which has a 15% lower CO2 footprint than existing plants. And clean coal can also turn the vision of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) into reality as we solve the technology and regulatory hurdles to let America capture and store CO2.
President -elect Obama's “New Energy for America” plan explicitly states that his administration will “develop and deploy clean coal technology ... as we power our economy with domestically produced and secure energy”. That fits right in with the growing public recognition that clean coal can power our future.
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written by Adam, November 14, 2008
I believe it's better to keep a Li-Ion battery fully charged, with a constant trickle charge. With the proper software you could pull power from millions of cars, affecting the charge on each one very little.
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written by Scatter, November 14, 2008
Concerns about the cycle life of batteries are very valid but cycle life is increasing all the time and I have no doubt it won't be an issue by the time the widespread uptake of V2G starts.
Lithium ion batteries can rapidly deteriorate if you do deep charge/discharge cycles. It's best (from a lifetime point of view) to keep them between around 20% and 80% charged (which I believe is what the Prius does).
Personally I don't see that there's an issue that you might come back to an empty battery. The driver will be able to specify, say 20 miles worth of charge to get back home at the end of the day and the software won't let the utilities draw down more than that. If his plans change at the last minute, he could text his car telling it to draw down another 10 miles of charge (probably at higher cost). As the car will be able to communicate directly with the grid, the utilities will know *exactly* how much total capacity they have available to them at any point in time so will be able to change their generators' outputs much more efficiently. And as the commuter is a predictable animal, the utility have a very good idea of how many vehicles will be available at what time.
One thing you didn't mention, which I think is the killer app of V2G, is that it will offer a vast mobile storage capacity for renewable energy which otherwise wouldn't be used. EVs and PHEVs will drive renewable energy expansion well beyond what could be achieved without V2G.
Resources:
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/v2g/index.html
Lithium ion batteries can rapidly deteriorate if you do deep charge/discharge cycles. It's best (from a lifetime point of view) to keep them between around 20% and 80% charged (which I believe is what the Prius does).
Personally I don't see that there's an issue that you might come back to an empty battery. The driver will be able to specify, say 20 miles worth of charge to get back home at the end of the day and the software won't let the utilities draw down more than that. If his plans change at the last minute, he could text his car telling it to draw down another 10 miles of charge (probably at higher cost). As the car will be able to communicate directly with the grid, the utilities will know *exactly* how much total capacity they have available to them at any point in time so will be able to change their generators' outputs much more efficiently. And as the commuter is a predictable animal, the utility have a very good idea of how many vehicles will be available at what time.
One thing you didn't mention, which I think is the killer app of V2G, is that it will offer a vast mobile storage capacity for renewable energy which otherwise wouldn't be used. EVs and PHEVs will drive renewable energy expansion well beyond what could be achieved without V2G.
Resources:
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/v2g/index.html
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written by Hendrik42, November 14, 2008
I will "rent" my car battery to utility providers when they do not only compensate for the power they draw but also the battery lifespan shortening through discharge/charge. And I think this cost will not alloow for this today.
But then again, the communication infrastructure needed for this alone will take >10 years to build/standardize/debug and until then battery technology will probably be there.
But then again, the communication infrastructure needed for this alone will take >10 years to build/standardize/debug and until then battery technology will probably be there.
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written by darius, November 14, 2008
The tech is advancing, granted at still very high prices. For example Altairnano batteries have been quoted anywhere between 9,000 and 25,000 charge cycles with no degradation.
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written by Carl, November 14, 2008
I don't buy the visions or economics of the V2G advocates. First, I don't think people are going to want the car drained in the late afternoon-- most will need it to drive home. If one could really make $300/mo without damaging the battery, it would be cheaper for the power companies to use their own batteries-- not limited by size or weight-- just cost. (To earn $300/mo, you would need the full capacity of 200 Prius batteries per day.)
We have a "dumb" grid now, because the price of electricity used by consumers is typically a flat rate, but the cost to the power company varies widely depending on time of day and peak demand. If the price varied to reflect actual relative cost (and average price was regulated to be the same), then users would invest in the most practical solutions. The power company would need to publish cost by time of day, or better, agree on a cheap standard radio signal to broadcast scheduled prices. That's better than just pulling down your pants and letting the power companies control your car.
Consider ice as energy storage. A cubic meter of water (the size of a commercial water heater) can store almost 100kWh of thermal energy as ice. Time-shift refrigerators and air conditioners could freeze water at night and release during the day, removing the biggest peak of electric demand.
We have a "dumb" grid now, because the price of electricity used by consumers is typically a flat rate, but the cost to the power company varies widely depending on time of day and peak demand. If the price varied to reflect actual relative cost (and average price was regulated to be the same), then users would invest in the most practical solutions. The power company would need to publish cost by time of day, or better, agree on a cheap standard radio signal to broadcast scheduled prices. That's better than just pulling down your pants and letting the power companies control your car.
Consider ice as energy storage. A cubic meter of water (the size of a commercial water heater) can store almost 100kWh of thermal energy as ice. Time-shift refrigerators and air conditioners could freeze water at night and release during the day, removing the biggest peak of electric demand.
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written by allen, November 15, 2008
Carl,
There are some flaws in the ice car concept.
1. A cubic metre of water is 1000kg. That is a lot of weight to carry around.
2. The cars would also need refrigeration plants and heat exchangers for controlled melting. These are also heavy.
3. The cars would need heavy insulation to prevent the ice from melting.
4. There is a collision danger with ice. Ice would break in sharp shards which would slice the occupants to shreds in the event of an accident.
5. The power company may not want to invest in regrigeration plants for cars. It would be cheaper for the power company to mine/harvest ice from Canada during the winter and transport it to the areas of demand year round.
There are some flaws in the ice car concept.
1. A cubic metre of water is 1000kg. That is a lot of weight to carry around.
2. The cars would also need refrigeration plants and heat exchangers for controlled melting. These are also heavy.
3. The cars would need heavy insulation to prevent the ice from melting.
4. There is a collision danger with ice. Ice would break in sharp shards which would slice the occupants to shreds in the event of an accident.
5. The power company may not want to invest in regrigeration plants for cars. It would be cheaper for the power company to mine/harvest ice from Canada during the winter and transport it to the areas of demand year round.
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written by Scatter, November 15, 2008
Carl I think you're missing the point. No one's suggesting the utilities will draw down the whole charge in your battery before you leave for home. Your vehicle would be left with just as much charge as you request. It's not a question of "pulling down your pants". You are in overall control of the parameters and the utilities simply use the battery as a reservoir on which they can draw or into which they can dump as necessary.
I agree that some of the higher revenue estimates are a little unbelievable but don't forget that one of the main benefits to the utilities is that they don't have to stump up any capital for the storage capacity.
I agree that some of the higher revenue estimates are a little unbelievable but don't forget that one of the main benefits to the utilities is that they don't have to stump up any capital for the storage capacity.
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written by dialtone, November 15, 2008
a better solution, for the power companies anyway, would be to use something like Beacon Energies flywheel storage for peak demands & save the batteries in the cars for actual driving
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written by Clinch, November 16, 2008
By the time battery (and other) technology has advanced enough for this to be a practical idea, there will probably be technologies available that are even better ideas.
In my opinion, the best option would be for electricity companies to build their own superbatterys. As well as the advantage of one (or few) giant batteries compaired to using thousands of small ones, and the issues of there being little reserve power at rush hour (i.e. when most of the cars are on the road), they will also be needed if unreliable renewable energy has any chance of becoming a major source of power (by unreliable, I mean solar and wind, which can produce a lot of energy sometimes, but none at others, so would need some major energy storage to evenly distribute their energy over time)
In my opinion, the best option would be for electricity companies to build their own superbatterys. As well as the advantage of one (or few) giant batteries compaired to using thousands of small ones, and the issues of there being little reserve power at rush hour (i.e. when most of the cars are on the road), they will also be needed if unreliable renewable energy has any chance of becoming a major source of power (by unreliable, I mean solar and wind, which can produce a lot of energy sometimes, but none at others, so would need some major energy storage to evenly distribute their energy over time)
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written by Carlo, November 17, 2008
If people are on the road - who's using all this grid energy? As people arrive home and plug in, they start to use the grid. Perfect synergy.
Takes a bit of imagination - assume the perfect battery has been invented and assume most people drive electric. V2G makes perfect sense to me. I drive only on weekends. Wouldn't dream of driving in peak - only crazy people do that.
Takes a bit of imagination - assume the perfect battery has been invented and assume most people drive electric. V2G makes perfect sense to me. I drive only on weekends. Wouldn't dream of driving in peak - only crazy people do that.
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