JUN 08

I wounder what type of warranty will be offered with the turbine and how easy or hard it is to install.

Since turbine efficiency is proportional to size, it seems doubtful that this will ever be a good investment. Seems like a waste of taxpayer dollars to subsidize it considering that money could be much better spent more effectively on solar hot-water heaters, insulation, or even PV panels.

As a Florida resident, I also wonder about the hurricane proofing of the device - what happens with winds above 45?

Does anyone know the noise pollution on the mini wind turbines? Since that seems to be the concern for the folks who have lived near their larger counter parts- it'd be a shame to attach something to your house that eventually drove you mad and caused chronic headaches.

Though even without the elimination of noise pollution, it looks like a step in the right direction what with the whole prospect of self sufficient houses.

If noise and vibration are a concern, this would be perfect for people with garages and sheds separate from their house. Jay Leno get a large proportion of the electricity for his garage from small wind turbines and solar panels.

If noise and vibration are a concern, this would be perfect for people with garages and sheds separate from their house. Jay Leno get a large proportion of the electricity for his garage from small wind turbines and solar panels.

Separate from the house eliminates the vibration problem, certainly... but the neighbors will still be annoyed by the noise unless you live on a ranch. Also, unless it is above ~60ft it won't get clean wind... and it won't get anywhere near 2000kwh per year without clean wind AND excellent wind speeds.

There's a reason you don't see these things everywhere and the ones you do see are usually tethered down.

Solar is a MUCH better way to go.

http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/index.html

http://www.scoraigwind.com/index.htm
(scroll down)


These things will burn people and turn them off of renewables while diverting dollars from something potentially useful (like solar, or insulation upgrades, or window films, etc. Heck, their site even notes that replacing 30 bulbs with CFLs has the same effect as their turbine... in optimal wind conditions).

These are the issues a site like this should look into instead of simply rewording the press releases from some manufacturer.


It's a lot cheaper, for example, to rent a cellulose blower from Home Depot and blow a foot of exra insulation into your attic. Not very "geeky" but certainly it has substance.

The information is out there, and thanks to the internet it is easier to find than in any time in human history. There is just NO excuse, other than laziness for a site not to look into these problems.

Anyone can read a press release. We don't need it reworded.

"If noise and vibration are a concern, this would be perfect for people with garages and sheds separate from their house."

Ha...ha...

1. How many 'sheeple' have 'garages and sheds separate from their house?'

2. Do the Jay Leno types really need more Green Ammo to shoot at us 'non-sheeple?'

And 'BBM' - Dude! Of course these EcoGeeks can't and won't bite the subsidized, Liberal hand that feeds these far-out, whacked 'ideas!' You got it Right BBM.

These so-called "green" technologies are at a huge competitive advantage when compared to coal or nuclear power. Think about all the effort that was made to harness nuclear power without these unfair government subsidies. /snark

Wow. 20 to 30 year payback in optimal conditions if it doesn't break! Same as 30 CFL's! (Around here that would cost $30)

Great comments on a not great article.

It looks promising but the cost is still way too high for the amount of energy it produces. If they get the cost down it would be great in addition to solar pv systems but not as a stand alone. 18% of energy consumption is great but not for $4,500 plus $1,500 for installation. Got ways to go.

Cool idea, sheeple or not, but it may not be around in a few years to pay you back. My handyman guru buddy tells me that anything that is spinning will vibrate, make noise, and loosen lag bolts, mounts and eventually fall off. Best case scenario, it will be maintenance-intensive, noisy and not be a medium-term sustainable investment. That is why they mount wind turbines on towers.

BBM, you're saying a lot of things that aren't necessarily true. I'm paying as much as 22 cents per kilowatt hour, so 2000kwh costs me $440 - my payback would be much shorter than 30 years, probably closer to 8. That also assumes the price wont go up, which it likely will. Their marketing material says a payback in 12-28 months with this "package" but the package also includes 10 CFL bulbs so I'm certain they're doing a bit of hand-waving to get to that figure.

You state that we'd have to live in a very windy area, but apparently this design doesn't require that. You also (I'm going to call it a guess rather than a lie) GUESS that you'd only get 2000kwh if it were operating at optimal wind, however they show a nice chart as to how they came to that number, and it includes days of sub-optimal wind. They state that in a class 4 wind area you'd get 2000kwh/year and show their work.

You're also guessing that it's loud and requires a very tall mast to install. With this design, it doesn't have to be loud, and they indicate that it's "35-45 db" (at what range guys?!?) - which is about the sound of a quiet conversation at 3'. It's likely quieter at lower wind speed too. Since it's making less vibrations, it's also much less likely to rattle apart.

In their FAQ, they describe how the wind is much cleaner at 50 meters than at 10, and it looks like they ran the numbers for power generation with 10 meter wind - which is rooftop height.

So basically BBM, you made a bunch of assumptions about the issues without even bothering to look into it, then accused others of not doing any fact checking? Pot, kettle, black.

@ Ian,

22 cents per kwh is high; but much higher than average... most people are around 10 cents. Even so, you're looking at about 12 year (simple) payback, or 8 years with a 30% credit. That's not terrible; it is not that much more than my solar hot water heater. However is assumes it never breaks. Which these things do.

If you look carefully at what I wrote, I am comparing to a solar setup (or spending that money on up insulation etc_. It's just a better way to spend your money. Silent, no moving parts, routinely last longer than their 20 year projected lifespan, etc.

All of the "rooftop" turbine makers make the same type of claims (quiet, quick payback etc). Sure this thing may "generate power" at 2mph... but a negligable amount, as power varies with the cube of windspeed. So as wind speed doubles, power goes up by a factor of 8 (someone correct me if my interpretation is wrong).

Have you ever hopped onto one of those bikes at a museum and tried to generate a few hundred watts of power? It's a LOT of work. That lazily spinning turbine you see in the video is probably making 10 watts. Or less.

They also state on their site, not 2000kwh/year, but 1500kwh/year.

I've included several websites that look at and test large and small wind generators. They are pro wind sites... but the verdict on small wind turbines is bad.

Why don't you take a look instead of just reading the Honeywell press release? Is it posssibly that this one will blow away all prior turbines with none of the disadvantages of the others? Possibly. But I'll await independent confirmation, skeptically, as should you. However, i still doubt it will compete with a solar setup or up insulation of your home, dollar for dollar. Perhaps you'd like to address that compelling point?


http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/index.html

http://www.scoraigwind.com/index.htm
(scroll down)

While generating at 2mph might seem like a nice feature, remember that the power available is proportional to the cube of wind speed, so the difference between 2mph and 16mph is 8*8*8=512 times the power. Then at 32mph, it is 4096 times the power. So slightly less windy areas (like close to the ground and near obstructions) make a huge difference in power output.

Likewise, turbine power is proportional to the square of the rotor diameter, so a 10x larger diameter is 100 times more power, not including the increase due to higher wind speed at higher altitude.

Thus except for isolated off-grid areas, I'm skeptical about the practicality of small wind power. It just seems hard to compete with large-scale wind power. Better to have one large turbine than hundreds (or thousands) of small ones.

I was recently mountain biking near Freiburg, Germany at the base of a wind generator near the top of a ridge-- it supplied the (average/total) power needs for about 1000 homes. (I think 70m rotor, half the large units these days.) That isn't even a particularly windy area.
If the small ones generate 20% of household needs, then 5000 of these ($30M) would be required to generate as much as one large unit.

Looks like they took this one step further:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Ted-Baer_s-Bicycle-Wheel-Windmill/

Added some of the ideas behind this:

http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-1000-watt-wind-turbine/

And now, you get the best of both for 4.5K...

Hmm, Honeywell must pay people to look at instructables...

$0.20 is high for power, but depending on how much you use it's easily possible. In SoCal, there are different payment rates once you reach 130%, 200%, 300%, etc. This CPUC pages shows that over 300% of baseline is almost $0.26/kwh
http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/publis.../7171.htm
I'm not saying this turbine is a great idea, but the ROI could be a lot shorter if it simply brings your power bill down into the 100-130% baseline range.

@shek

You'd save even more (economically speaking) by not buying the wind turbine and bringing the consumption down closer to that 100% baseline through more efficient use of power.

Efficiency first, then new power systems.

This thing is useless. Read this post on Slashdot: 12 small windmills put to the test in Holland

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/19/2022214

Blindly going for efficiency gains can be a waste, which is why ROI is used. Unless you are implying that instead of increasing efficiency, people should simply start scaling back their lifestyle (which is another arrow in our quill, but doesn't belong in the current argument). TANSTAFL, so any increase in efficiency usually has an associated cost that can be looked at from a ROI POV. Obviously if there is some low hanging fruit, that should be taken first; but it's not unreasonable to think that there are people who are being more efficient but are still over baseline. You would save the most if you simply didn't use electricity at all; in fact I could save TONS of money if I just lived in the wilderness and ate whatever I find or kill, but that approach isn't going to help many people.

"TANSTAFL"... excellent.

The problem is that, in general, manufacturer claims for small turbines are crap so the ROI is terrible. The noise is terrible. The vibration is terrible. The proper install (tall mast) is a lot more than $1500, further damaging ROI. There's just much better ways to spend money. There's no need for a reductio ad absurdum.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/04/small-windmills-test-results.html

Big wind is good; small wind is a waste of money at best. So far. I await testing of this model but my doubts remain. It's not revolutionary enough (capturing low wind speed delivers so little power its not funny).

Subsidizing things like this would be a terrible waste of taxpayer dollars that could go to something actually valuable, like big wind turbines, solar, up insulation, Volt tax credits etc.

There's just really no defending it based on the currently (widely) available information about the actual power outputs of small turbines.

Can ANYONE show a real world test where something this size got more than 400kwh per year?

Just because we want something to be true does not make it so.

A Chinese factory with a substantial number of orders can make these for much less than $4,500. The problem is the noise.

You did the math -- good man.
Here in northern Ohio, power costs about $0.12/kWh
That mean a $4,500 investment would have purchased
4,500/0.12 = 37,500 kWh
37,500/2,000 = 18.75 year payback. Not a great investment, but a cool one.
As you mentioned, incentives for Uncle Sam and the state might shorten that period.
Let's see more math, you people!
Paul

"Horseless carriages propelled by gasoline might attain speeds of 14 or even 20 miles per hour. The menace to our people of vehicles of this type hurtling through our streets and along our roads and poisoning the atmosphere would call for prompt legislative action even if the military and economic implications were not so overwhelming. The cost of producing gasoline is far beyond the financial capacity of private industry. In addition, the development of this new power may displace the use of horses, which would wreck our agriculture."

Horseless Carriage Committee, U. S. Congressional Record, c. 1875.

What if they made this like an attic turbine (or whatever it's called), and it used the air already being ventilated?

that'll be a useful item to have in windy cities

$4500.00 with an simple interest rate of 2% over 18 years would be $1620.00. You are assuming the 2KWH is accurate, this is doubtful in my opinion. Manufacturers usually use optimal circumstances for rating any machine/appliance. IE something you usually see on the boob tube in small print: "results not typical".

Please take a look at an alternative Rooftop Wind Turbine.

Rooftop Wind Power

http://rooftopwind.biz

Brilliant! Except its not.

WindTronics is being deceitful in their design claims AND in their market claims. Industry expert Paul Gipe has already reviewed this product and has this to say about the design:
"There is no substantiation to back up the promoter's claims and the claims themselves are exaggerated."

Also of note:
"There are no units in use. One turbine has been "tested" in a wind tunnel. Thus, all claims about the product are projecture.

Those who have followed the debate about performance measurements of small turbines realize that testing in a wind tunnel is not testing at all. Wind tunnel "tests" are useful only for design not for estimating the performance of the wind turbine in the field.

Though no turbines have been tested in the field, Earthronics has hired a public relations company."

Who the heck would talk about selling a product they have never tested in its intended use??!!

To all Posters; While I see a tremendous amount of Criticism, what I don't see are constructive Ideas. At least the article reaches out to those that may not be as well versed on Wind Energy Options as some of you, what it does do is bring all into the discussion. Please keep in mind there are those that really want to do more to improve their energy efficiency, all most want is understanding of their needs.

Imagine a day when none of us get a power bill from a large Corporate Conglomerate feeding off the Taxpayers. Imagine a day when every Rural Landowner is free of the Burden of Power Bills.

If Alternative Energy is to become a Reality, the Government is going to have to really reward those that are able to be creative and come up with ways to make alternative energy affordable for all.

As a Consultant in the Land use arena, I'm constantly asked if I know of Low Cost Energy Systems. Unfortunately, Government is lagging in both Funding and Real Programs. Most of the Energy Agencies are HEAVY in Bureaucracy and Light on Substance and Capital Assistance.

I welcome all information on systems that are low cost making this affordable for all. Remember the small landowner you know the little guy.

Independent in Washington State said Imagine a day when none of us get a power bill from a large Corporate Conglomerate. This is what I am after no bills. I do not care if it takes 30yr to pay for it. If I go to the bank and take out a note on it I will know what it cost me each month and it will not go up. I have a place in West Texas "class4" alot of wind. In about 8yr I will retire the place is payed for (old family home) if I use solar and wind clean out my horse pens and make my own gas. It will not matter to me if I use 100000kwh if it only cost $5.00 a month. Then I can get a job in a hardware store pushing bolts if I have to and live good. solargropies said My handyman guru buddy tells me that anything that is spinning will vibrate, make noise, and loosen lag bolts, mounts and eventually fall off. Get a new handyman. Lets see a v8 motor turning at 18000 rpm (thats faster then 45mph.) with a cooling fan on it over all weight 700lb. The bolts did not fall out and you do not vibrate out of the car. Why? A thing called a harmonic balancer. Just because something is round will not make it balanced. Not balanced = vibration = noise, balanced - vibration = no noise. On say a rail road car wheel you drill holes in it to balance it. Now for the noise. If I kick the same rail car at you at 10mph (thats just cutting it off and letting it roll) on a snow covered rail you will never hear it comming. Countless men have been killed this way. Yes I'm a conductor on the rail road. 35db ain't much. In National Parks 75db at 100' is the max for generators. This is only my thoughts on the matter.

Great to see the potential of rooftop wind recognized. Building Turbines, LLC has a great commercial application that is capable of generating 5kw. http://buildingturbines.com

At www.allsmallwindturbines.com you'll find the largest listing of small wind turbines.

Here in South Florida, the Miami-Dade County Building Department would probably either 1) Have an engineer certify that this roof-mounted wind turbine can withstand 150mph winds or 2) Take it down when a hurricane warning is given.

if every state had in their building codes a small 2KW wind turbine for every house & in the South if every new house built also had to have at least 2 KW of solar panels on the roof - North too for that matter - walls that had to be insulated to at least R-40 & ceiling or roof insulated to at least R- 80
like Jess above mentioned - build it into your 30 year mortgage from the beginning & you wont notice the cost - from another railroader ( long time ago - carman & section gang one summer) now in telcom