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Yesterday I alluded to the shortcomings of small wind turbines, and today I read about a device being sold by Honeywell that only reinforces my belief. I can’t really think of anyone who’d benefit from Honeywell’s Home Wind Turbine.
The device itself is a six foot wide turbine which generates 1,580 Kwh per year, according to Honeywell’s promotional video. They went on to claim that it will provide you with 15% of your energy needs, and pay for itself in 12-36 months. In some states.
Let’s examine this, shall we? The 15% comes from the assumption that the average household uses roughly 10-11,000 Kwh of electricity per year, 1,580 Kwh being roughly 15% of that. That’s fine, except I have no doubt that the average suburban household uses more than 10-11,000, and those are the only households that would be interested in purchasing this system anyway.
Especially because it costs $4,500. I don’t understand how they calculate the payback to be so short – the EIA estimates that electricity will cost an average of 12 cents/Kwh in 2010. 1,580 Kwh times 12 cents/Kwh gives you… $189.60 worth of electricity every year, which means you will pay off your system in 23 years. Even if electricity cost a whopping 30 cents/Kwh, it would still take 9 years. Unless my math is wrong, in which case please – correct me.
Parallels are often made between the cleantech industry today and the computer industry of, say, the late 80’s and early 90’s. Perhaps some believe that, just like we used to pay thousands of dollars for computers that are now completely obsolete, people will pay similar prices for wind turbines, solar panels and electric cars at this stage in the game. I say – they won’t. Computers were cool, and they made our lives better and easier. A six foot wind turbine that only produces a trickle of electricity doesn’t affect my life very much, and isn’t all that cool.
Via Gas 2.0
Image Via EarthTronics
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written by Wolfgang, July 24, 2009
Economically and ecologically big windmills are better.
* on roofs of houses in urban areas often much less wind is available, there are turbulences caused by the buildings, trees, ...=> much less energy can be harvested
* with that: to build such mills it costs more energy than it can be harvested before they break
* additional costs: installation and maintenance
See in the articles below, why small windmills seldom do deliver the promised energy.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/09/urban-windmills.html
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/small-windmills/
* on roofs of houses in urban areas often much less wind is available, there are turbulences caused by the buildings, trees, ...=> much less energy can be harvested
* with that: to build such mills it costs more energy than it can be harvested before they break
* additional costs: installation and maintenance
See in the articles below, why small windmills seldom do deliver the promised energy.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/09/urban-windmills.html
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/small-windmills/
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written by Bob Wallace, July 24, 2009
A few points...
Whether a wind turbine works for you depends greatly on how windy your site is. I know people living within a few miles of me who get almost all their electricity from a small windmill. I don't live in as windy a spot, I can't.
I'm getting 80+% of my power from PV solar. I have to burn some gallons of gas in a generator during the cloudy months of winter. When I look at the price of a generator, tower, and installation I can't make the numbers work with gasoline in the neighborhood of $3 per gallon. When gas goes back above $5 per gallon I'll redo the math.
Unless one had an excellent site and lived where grid prices are high I doubt that this a windmill would be a good expenditure of personal/tax payer money.
Next, this turbing with its ~6 foot diameter is almost twice as expensive as a Bergey or Whisper turbine of the same size. I'd sure want to see some field tests to see if the extra money is somehow returned. There are issues of reliability, frequency/cost of maintenance, performance in various wind speeds, and ability to withstand very high winds that need addressing.
If you'd like to get a basic understanding of what's on the market try this site...
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/
and on the "Select a Product" drop-down pick "Windmills".
Also Home Power Magazine recently published a very thorough review of wind turbines.
There are products on the market which are pitched at "homeowners". Some are very over-hyped. I don't know if this is a similar product or not, so would advise careful study for dropping a few grand.
Whether a wind turbine works for you depends greatly on how windy your site is. I know people living within a few miles of me who get almost all their electricity from a small windmill. I don't live in as windy a spot, I can't.
I'm getting 80+% of my power from PV solar. I have to burn some gallons of gas in a generator during the cloudy months of winter. When I look at the price of a generator, tower, and installation I can't make the numbers work with gasoline in the neighborhood of $3 per gallon. When gas goes back above $5 per gallon I'll redo the math.
Unless one had an excellent site and lived where grid prices are high I doubt that this a windmill would be a good expenditure of personal/tax payer money.
Next, this turbing with its ~6 foot diameter is almost twice as expensive as a Bergey or Whisper turbine of the same size. I'd sure want to see some field tests to see if the extra money is somehow returned. There are issues of reliability, frequency/cost of maintenance, performance in various wind speeds, and ability to withstand very high winds that need addressing.
If you'd like to get a basic understanding of what's on the market try this site...
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/
and on the "Select a Product" drop-down pick "Windmills".
Also Home Power Magazine recently published a very thorough review of wind turbines.
There are products on the market which are pitched at "homeowners". Some are very over-hyped. I don't know if this is a similar product or not, so would advise careful study for dropping a few grand.
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written by BruceMcF, July 24, 2009
... the open question is for how many.
The main technological point is that this "edge generator" design can generate electricity from lower speed wind than many conventional design wind turbines can do, so there will be SOME locations that are not economic (even including rebates) with conventional designs, which will be economic with this design.
The open question is how many areas are in that situation. And, realistically, early adopters of the design are in part the guinea pigs who will help answer that question.
However, give that the target is a rooftop or similar installation, it seems like it ought to be possible to design some kind of inexpensive wind speed meter that can give an on-site estimate of its viability for a given site.
The main technological point is that this "edge generator" design can generate electricity from lower speed wind than many conventional design wind turbines can do, so there will be SOME locations that are not economic (even including rebates) with conventional designs, which will be economic with this design.
The open question is how many areas are in that situation. And, realistically, early adopters of the design are in part the guinea pigs who will help answer that question.
However, give that the target is a rooftop or similar installation, it seems like it ought to be possible to design some kind of inexpensive wind speed meter that can give an on-site estimate of its viability for a given site.
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written by russ, July 24, 2009
Look at the documents available from Honeywell - they point out all sorts of errors.
The thing is an expensive toy that will never pay for itself.
2000 kW is maybe 200 bucks - they are depending on incentives and subsidies - your tax dollars down the drain
Commercial turbines use a capacity factor of 30 to 35% - these guys are using 100%
They give some fancy way to determine output but simply take your average wind speed (say 10 mph) provides an output of 100 watts * hours (8760) * capacity factor (35%) / 1000 = 300 watts per year. Hell of a deal! Maybe 30 dollars per year return!
If you have 4500 dollars plus another 1500 to 2000 for installation why not just give it to Honeywell and save yourself a big headache - forget the turbine
The thing is an expensive toy that will never pay for itself.
2000 kW is maybe 200 bucks - they are depending on incentives and subsidies - your tax dollars down the drain
Commercial turbines use a capacity factor of 30 to 35% - these guys are using 100%
They give some fancy way to determine output but simply take your average wind speed (say 10 mph) provides an output of 100 watts * hours (8760) * capacity factor (35%) / 1000 = 300 watts per year. Hell of a deal! Maybe 30 dollars per year return!
If you have 4500 dollars plus another 1500 to 2000 for installation why not just give it to Honeywell and save yourself a big headache - forget the turbine
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written by looselycoupled, July 24, 2009
Would you be able to write off the cost on your income taxes? What about renewable energy subsidies from the DOE/EPA ?
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written by Bob Wallace, July 24, 2009
it seems like it ought to be possible to design some kind of inexpensive wind speed meter that can give an on-site estimate of its viability for a given site.
Got 'em....
One could use a
Got 'em....
One could use a
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written by Gary M, July 24, 2009
Why is everyone so caught up in the almighty dollar, anyway? If you have the money, freakin' spend it, and spend it on the right thing for a change. As a culture, we're way too caught up on being about the money, except where keeping up with the Jones's is concerned. So be the damn Jones's and maybe others will follow suit. If not, you're still smarter than they are.
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written by marc, July 24, 2009
I have been waiting for the topic of small wind to come on ecogeek for some time as a matter of FACT the federal government gives 0 of total cost including install to anyone and every one with no cap for small wind many states have similar incentives, even more utility companies also offer net metering and cash on connection incentives (like $500+) also although honeywells product is a new and cheap ANYONE interested in lowering or eliminating there electric bill needs to goto skystreamenergy.com Hands down winner in the renewable energy appliance industry it represents or better put will be what saves the american dream
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written by bbm, July 25, 2009
It is about the Benjamins... at least how you spend them. You are MUCH MUCH MUCH better off spending that money on a solar array, or up insulation on your house, or on a hybrid car, or on high efficiency appliances etc.
The fact that even Honeywell claims that a handful of CFLs deliver a similar energy value *should* tell you something.
And Bruce... wind power varies with the cube of wind speed. So even if the rotor turns in 3mph winds, it's not going to generate much. Try cranking a 100 watt generator by hand sometime. It's a LOT of work.
The fact that even Honeywell claims that a handful of CFLs deliver a similar energy value *should* tell you something.
And Bruce... wind power varies with the cube of wind speed. So even if the rotor turns in 3mph winds, it's not going to generate much. Try cranking a 100 watt generator by hand sometime. It's a LOT of work.
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written by Bob Wallace, July 25, 2009
on-site estimate
Hummm....
Did I use up my daily word allotment?
Anyway, one can use a
Hummm....
Did I use up my daily word allotment?
Anyway, one can use a
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written by Bob Wallace, July 25, 2009
Davis/Other sub-$100 weather stations. $300-400 gets one that records data that can be downloaded to computer.
Looks like I've been word-limited...
Looks like I've been word-limited...
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written by Chris, July 26, 2009
Just a brief note... some of use nowhere near 10,000-11,000 kWh of electricity per year. I live in a well-designed 220 square metre suburban house. Granted there are only 2 of us, but we use less than 5kWh per day, which translates to 1,825kWh per year.
A combination of a smallish PV system (1.5kW) and a decent small wind device (average wind speed in my location is excellent) would easily see me selling energy back to the grid.
Thus, these sort of small scale devices (I haven't looked at the technical details of this particular machine, though) are useful in some situations.
A combination of a smallish PV system (1.5kW) and a decent small wind device (average wind speed in my location is excellent) would easily see me selling energy back to the grid.
Thus, these sort of small scale devices (I haven't looked at the technical details of this particular machine, though) are useful in some situations.
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written by Bob, July 28, 2009
I believe that there are home brewed options that go for about 25% the cost of this machine. Its still pretty early in the game, and I think that big name machines will have to come down in cost in order to compete.
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written by Brian Levine, July 30, 2009
Good day,
I'm happy to chime in.
As VP of Business Development and Marketing at WindTronics, I believe these comments assume same old same old, but there is nothing traditional about this technology. As per our web site, "the Honeywell Wind Turbine's (HWT)Blade Tip Power System (BTPS) replaces the traditional gear box, shaft and generator of typical wind turbine technology. The Honeywell Wind Turbine’s gearless Blade Tip System creates a “free wheeling’’ turbine, generating energy from the blade tips (where the speed lies) rather than through a mechanical center gear".
I'd be pleased to share footage from a wind tunnel demonstration of how the system operates at 8mp when traditional turbines are just kicking in...the velocity of the HWT is off the charts.
WindTronics was created to make Wind Energy Generation affordable and efficient. This required a complete redesign. That's what we've done and yes we come to the cusp of maximum efficiency which was our plan.
In regards to payback, DOE states as average power consumption is 11,000kWh. At 2000 kWh in Class 4 wind, this represents 18%. No doubt Federal, State and Utlity rebates play a significant role in the payback equation, but thankfully we have these rebates and incentives to help us make a difference.
Think about magnets at the blade tips, no gears or shafts, startup at 1mph and the physics of weights on the blades tips.
We undertsand that small wind has disappointed to date. We didn't set out dressup exisiting technology, we literally turned existing technology inside out.
Brian Levine
I'm happy to chime in.
As VP of Business Development and Marketing at WindTronics, I believe these comments assume same old same old, but there is nothing traditional about this technology. As per our web site, "the Honeywell Wind Turbine's (HWT)Blade Tip Power System (BTPS) replaces the traditional gear box, shaft and generator of typical wind turbine technology. The Honeywell Wind Turbine’s gearless Blade Tip System creates a “free wheeling’’ turbine, generating energy from the blade tips (where the speed lies) rather than through a mechanical center gear".
I'd be pleased to share footage from a wind tunnel demonstration of how the system operates at 8mp when traditional turbines are just kicking in...the velocity of the HWT is off the charts.
WindTronics was created to make Wind Energy Generation affordable and efficient. This required a complete redesign. That's what we've done and yes we come to the cusp of maximum efficiency which was our plan.
In regards to payback, DOE states as average power consumption is 11,000kWh. At 2000 kWh in Class 4 wind, this represents 18%. No doubt Federal, State and Utlity rebates play a significant role in the payback equation, but thankfully we have these rebates and incentives to help us make a difference.
Think about magnets at the blade tips, no gears or shafts, startup at 1mph and the physics of weights on the blades tips.
We undertsand that small wind has disappointed to date. We didn't set out dressup exisiting technology, we literally turned existing technology inside out.
Brian Levine
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written by payatz, August 04, 2009
This turbine only makes sense if it can quickly offset emissions caused by making it. Without that data, it is irrelevant to know how much money one can save by using it.
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written by Sam Streubel, August 06, 2009
1. Honeywell claims in their literature that "Class 4 winds represent the majority of North America." A quick look at this wind resource map will tell you differently: http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_maps.asp
2. The wind speed readings on this, and most other wind speed charts, were taken at an altitude of 50 meters which is relevant only if you live in a tree house.
3. At 15-18 feet (the height of a typical one story house) you would be hard pressed to encounter mean, average, or any other measurable wind speeds greater than 12 mph.
4. At 12 mph, a 5.7 foot prop (the diameter of the Honeywell) would generate approximately 67 kWh of electricity per month.
5. This would translate to an estimated annual savings of $96 at $0.12/kWh.
6. Payback: $4,500 - $1,350 (30% tax credit) = $3,150.
$3,150/$96 = 32 years.
On the plus side: Over the 20 year useful life of this turbine, the cost per kWh would average out to around $0.20 which isn't bad in the world of alternative energy systems.
This amount would further be reduced by an additional 20-25% depending on your state's energy rebate policy and, of course, the payback period would be reduced by the same percentage.
Assuming an additional $1,000 for installation, I estimate the cost per watt for the Honeywell system to be slightly under $7(before rebates) which is a buck less than the average $8(before rebates) per watt cost for solar. Once again, not bad.
Finally, I really like the idea of prepackaged electronics (inverter, etc.) sized to match the system. This concept is much like the "boiler room in a box" system used for hydronic heating and will really keep a lid on installation costs.
Source: http://www.alternative-heating...ntial.html
2. The wind speed readings on this, and most other wind speed charts, were taken at an altitude of 50 meters which is relevant only if you live in a tree house.
3. At 15-18 feet (the height of a typical one story house) you would be hard pressed to encounter mean, average, or any other measurable wind speeds greater than 12 mph.
4. At 12 mph, a 5.7 foot prop (the diameter of the Honeywell) would generate approximately 67 kWh of electricity per month.
5. This would translate to an estimated annual savings of $96 at $0.12/kWh.
6. Payback: $4,500 - $1,350 (30% tax credit) = $3,150.
$3,150/$96 = 32 years.
On the plus side: Over the 20 year useful life of this turbine, the cost per kWh would average out to around $0.20 which isn't bad in the world of alternative energy systems.
This amount would further be reduced by an additional 20-25% depending on your state's energy rebate policy and, of course, the payback period would be reduced by the same percentage.
Assuming an additional $1,000 for installation, I estimate the cost per watt for the Honeywell system to be slightly under $7(before rebates) which is a buck less than the average $8(before rebates) per watt cost for solar. Once again, not bad.
Finally, I really like the idea of prepackaged electronics (inverter, etc.) sized to match the system. This concept is much like the "boiler room in a box" system used for hydronic heating and will really keep a lid on installation costs.
Source: http://www.alternative-heating...ntial.html
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written by thhre, September 15, 2009
http://www.convertflvtoswf.com ---Sharing Youtube video with
folks
On converting FLV to SWF, FLV to SWF Converter is relly the fantastic one. Using this tool,
you can convert Youtube(.flv) video to swf and edit flv files before converting.
http://www.greenrlife.com/2008/05/14/welcome-to-the-greenr-life-blog/#respond
folks
On converting FLV to SWF, FLV to SWF Converter is relly the fantastic one. Using this tool,
you can convert Youtube(.flv) video to swf and edit flv files before converting.
http://www.greenrlife.com/2008/05/14/welcome-to-the-greenr-life-blog/#respond
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written by tiffany jewellery, September 22, 2009
This amount would further be reduced by an additional 20-25% depending on your state's energy rebate policy and, of course, the payback period would be reduced by the same percentage.
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written by Tom Stacy, September 27, 2009
The comparison between computer technology and wind technology is interesting. One major difference - the only way to make wind turbines BETTER is to make them BIGGER. The opposite scaling evolved in the computer chip.
Wind can go so far - maybe 5 to 7% of our mix. Then it becomes the dominant factor (over demand fluctuation) in voltage/frequency regulation = negating much of the purported emissions reduction it advertises. Has anyone seen Michael Goggin?.
Wind can go so far - maybe 5 to 7% of our mix. Then it becomes the dominant factor (over demand fluctuation) in voltage/frequency regulation = negating much of the purported emissions reduction it advertises. Has anyone seen Michael Goggin?.
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written by tracey whyman, October 29, 2009
The cost for this and other wind turbines including solar panels are way to high. When Sony can sell a 30" HDTV for $300 which is way more technical to build, than a 6' diameter bicycle wheel with fan blades attached with magnets on the ends for the rotor and a stator on the the outside. What I'd like to know what it actually costs Honeywell to build one, I'd bet it's less than $1,000. Most of these solar and wind companys have been trying to sell there products for 40 years and only a few buyers have ever purchased them, remember the late 70's? Now everyone one is on a green kick again and no manufacturer will sell these products any cheaper than they did before, because they are trying to capitalize on a fad and the people that just have to have the fad first. Once someone finally sells the product at a lower price but in large volumes will the green revolution really start, and the have resonable payback periods. By then the goverment will just tax the hell out of anyone who has solar or wind, to make up from the lost taxes the power company once provided to them. Right now the only way I see that I can put in alternitive energy is to build it myself, which can be a disaster in itself. I do like Honeywells idea, they just need to lower the price to the real world.
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written by Paul Hunter, November 09, 2009
Having just read the honeywell review in PM I must say it sounds like a really cool design. Being an engineer I just love it when somebody thinks outside of the box. So good to read the blogs on this subject, it's true....it's not always about the $$$, the long term good it can do OUR environment (I breath the same air, even in Africa when I'm here!)must not be forgotten and yes I do think that it costs to much....I'm sure the Chinese will oblige with a cheaper copy but I would be far happier if it was made in the USA...for many reasons. Congratulations Honeywell on such an innovative design.
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written by Dan Sitarz, November 18, 2009
A few quick comments: This turbine was designed at the Michigan Alternative and Renewable Energy Center at Grand Valley State University in Muskegon MI and the designer, Imad Mahawili, had originally hoped that the units would retail for under $2,000. However, with the licensing of the technology to Honeywell, the price has more than doubled, driven more by advertising and marketing costs than by manufacturing costs, an unfortunate reality in today's corporate world. Additionally, the output claimed is for Class 3 and 4 wind areas (approx. 2000 kWh for Class 3 and around 2,560 for Class 4). This amounts to about 38 kWh per week output or about 5.4 kWh/day, certainly doable in the midwestern states that fall within the Class 3 and 4 wind areas. Finally, even at $4500 plus $1500 for installation = $6000, less 30% federal tax credit for small wind installation ($1800), you're now at $4,200. There are many state incentives that will effectively cut that amount in half and you are back to about $2,000 or $1/kWh which is quite competitive with most other small wind systems. Despite naysayers, of course the price should include the savings attributed to state and federal incentives (if the oil, gas, and coal industries did not have such incentives for the past 3 generations, those industries would not exist as we know them--certainly a good idea, but no reason to downplay the value of incentives to level the playing field for new energy technologies.
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Also, my energy consumption is somewhere around 6 KWh/day, so this turbine would produce a whopping 72% of my household needs. Pretty amazing, really. How real are these figures? 1.5 MWh/annum in a 6ft turbine sounds too good to be true.
I can't immediately tell from the video, but it looks like it is generating power by dragging permanent magnets around a circular track -- presumably filled with coils? Genius! Why has it taken this long for someone to figure that out?