Comments for Honda / Toyota: Inflated Mileage at http://www.ecogeek.org , comment 1 to 28 out of 20 comments http://www.ecogeek.org Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:12:50 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-9549 HAD CHEVY COME UP WITH A TWO SEAT REAR ENGINE GEO METRO LIGHTER, LESS DRAG, IT WOULD HAVE EASILY GOTTEN 75 TO 80 MPG.. HAD THEY GONE TO DIESL THE WOULD BE GETTING 100-120 MPG.. BUT THAT WOULD BE TOO EASY. - JOE DUPONT Sun, 03 Feb 2008 13:25:45 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2727 Great mileage is every drivers' concern, much more to Automakers like Honda. It's one of the top preferences in car purchasing so Honda must give more attention to it as well as other parts like [url=http://www.discounthonparts.com/honda-egr-valve/]Honda EGR Valve[/url] which contributes to fuel effiency. - bloody13 Sat, 02 Jun 2007 02:44:52 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2725 [i]The moral highroad is treacherous?[/i] Yes. He who casts stones and all that. It's the heart if legitimacy, as well as one's ability to influence others. [i]Let's count you as one who is willing to compromise our childrens' future for the sake of easy choices.[/i] You don't know one bloody thing about how I conduct my life, and there you go making vicious moral judgments out of the blue. Thanks for proving my point. Anytime you want to compare "green cred", I'd be more than happy. [i]That's cool . . . you're in the clear majority.[/i] You know nothing about me, other than that I can apprehend facts well and don't just buy it when people toss off numbers that have no basis. [i]My kids will blame you for the world they inherit. You best be ready to take the blame.[/i] Oh, you're going to procreate, Mr. Earthsaver? Lovely. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:34:39 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2721 The moral highroad is treacherous? Let's count you as one who is willing to compromise our childrens' future for the sake of easy choices. That's cool . . . you're in the clear majority. My kids will blame you for the world they inherit. You best be ready to take the blame. - Tod Brilliant Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:45:04 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2720 [i]Having actually driven both, I know that the Honda feels far more unfast than the other one.[/i] So? [i]Plus there's a difference between riding a real SUV vs. a subcompact![/i] The Escape is not a real SUV, certainly not the FWD version which gets the better mileage. And the Civic is not a subcompact. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:29:19 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2719 0-60 times (Motor Trend) ================ Honda Civic Hybrid..... 11.3 Ford Escape Hybrid..... 11.7 Having actually driven both, I know that the Honda feels far more unfast than the other one. Plus there's a difference between riding a real SUV vs. a subcompact! - Jongster Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:09:24 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2718 And to address your cynicism that somehow hybrids don't matter, try comparing the real-world fuel economy of the Prius to the average light vehice in America (47.1 v 19.5). If a household were to go from an average fuel economy level to that of a Prius, they would reduce their automotive CO2 output by 12,447 pounds, the equivalent of reducing household electricity consumption by a whopping 76%. Combine that with a carbon-free electricity source for the home, and a family can get their CO2 down 80% or more. Two simple changes, available today. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:55:39 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2717 Just thought I'd let you know your formating is messed up on this post when viewed with Firefox 2.0.0.4. The main content text runs into the sidebar, with the sidebar elements layered over the top. Looks fine in IE 6.0. - sue Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:52:32 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2716 [i]Beats having to drive an anemic Honda Civic hybrid and get just 6 more MPG! [/i] 0-60 times (Motor Trend) ================ Honda Civic Hybrid..... 11.3 Ford Escape Hybrid..... 11.7 Real world numbers at Greenhybrid have the Civic Hybrid getting 14 mpg better than the Escape. The EPA's real world numbers have it 12 mpg higher - the same as the difference in the combined fuel economy ratings. Back to the drawing board for you. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:44:39 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2715 [i]Oh, as for the numbers of CO2 Prius v. Jetta I've seen numbers that conflict with yours. I didn't bother posting as neither you, nor I, nor any readers are likely to know which are the 'right' numbers and do why bother distracting from the conversation so mightily?[/i] Let's refresh our memories. You said that a Prius puts out 4% less "emissions" (again, ignoring everything out of the tailpipe except CO2 - the reason there is no '07 Jetta TDI) and that the Prius is $10K more than the Jetta. In reality, the Prius is $4,105 cheaper, so you're off by $14K there, and even with numbers most favorable to the Jetta (its fuel economy average at Greenhybrid [42.8] vs. the Prius numbers at Greenhybrid [47.1]), the Jetta will put out 1,614 pounds more CO2 over 15,000 miles than a Prius (26% more). So you're off by a factor of 6-7 on the CO2 thing. One thing people seem to not know is that the emission coefficient (in lbs CO2 per gallon) for diesel is higher than for motor gasoline (22.4 v. 19.6), so even at the same fuel economy level, diesel puts out 14% more CO2. All I'm saying is that if you're going to be at the extremes on something (in this case, calling for serious lifestyle changes for everyone), and you come guns blazing into a discussion, it would pay to get your numbers straight. It would also be essential that you get your own house in order before you start demanding others clean up theirs. A woman came to Gandhi with her kid and said, "Tell my child to stop eating sugar." Gandhi said, "Come back in two weeks." She did, and when she came back, said, "OK, please tell my child to stop eating sugar." Gandhi said, "Please stop eating sugar, child." The woman then asked him why she needed to have waited two weeks. Gandhi said, "I had to stop eating sugar." And keep in mind, you're no Gandhi, and even if you were, there'd still be a lot of kids who would go on eating sugar. The moral high road is treacherous. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:38:31 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2714 The 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid FWD is rated at 34/30 city/hwy, using the NEW EPA standards. See Beats having to drive an anemic Honda Civic hybrid and get just 6 more MPG! - Jongster Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:31:15 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2713 [i]Yes, I've given up on fossil-fueled transportation.[/i] Really? No buses? No diesel-powered trains? No diesel-powered ferries? No cab rides? No car? No truck? No escalators powered from the grid? No scooters? No motorcycles? Just you and your two feet, huh? [i]The BIGGEST problem is jet travel, not auto, by the way.[/i] Where do you get these notions? Air travel is a fraciton of the global warming impact of surface transportation. [i]I've given up jet travel, which is a huge inconvenience but not the end of my world.[/i] You've given it up *for now*. How exactly is that commitment binding? Or are you like Monbiot and make exceptions when you feel that your flight is somehow "saving the world"? [i]As for auto transport, I'm working on it, believe you me![/i] Wait, so you are convinced there's a catastrophic situation that demands immediate reductions by us all, and despite all your "awareness" and "commitment" you haven't bitten the bullet and gone without fossil-fueled vehicles after all? Lead by example. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:27:24 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2712 Forgot to add this jet-related link: [url]http://todbrilliant.com/inconvenient-holidays-why-we-cant-fly-anymore/[/url] Basically, I'm inviting you into my nest where you can blast me apart there. Heh. I don't have the answers, mate, but we have to collectively tease everything apart if we're going to get them. So for that, Teddy, I thank you. It's all part of the process. Oh, as for the numbers of CO2 Prius v. Jetta I've seen numbers that conflict with yours. I didn't bother posting as neither you, nor I, nor any readers are likely to know which are the 'right' numbers and do why bother distracting from the conversation so mightily? - Tod Brilliant Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:41:05 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2711 Yes, I've given up on fossil-fueled transportation. The BIGGEST problem is jet travel, not auto, by the way. I've given up jet travel, which is a huge inconvenience but not the end of my world. As for auto transport, I'm working on it, believe you me! You? - Tod Brilliant Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:36:03 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2710 I love how you dispute every objective, verifiable fact laid out and ignore how egregiously off the mark pretty much every factual assertion you made is. [i]We either give a damn or we don't. Focusing on the 'freedom' provided by our cars is inane. In my eyes, there isn't much difference between a Prius, a Jetta, and a Hummer. They're all the road to ruin.[/i] So you've given up using all forms of fossil-fueled automotive transportation? No? - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:13:26 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2709 Geo Metro was first produced (as a rebrand) in 1987. First as a Metro in 1988. U.S. availability isn't germaine in this context. This is a global issue. Secondly, you seem to consider creature comforts to be equally important to footprint reduction. The Prius would be impressive if it eschewed luxury additions and increased MPG by 10. I know, it's inconvenient to give up the CD player and the AC, but do you give a damn, or do you not? The TDI mileage figures you give differ greatly from those experienced in the real world by the three TDI drivers I know. Not saying you're dead wrong, only that their cars must be special. $21K for a new Prius? Wow. You're living in Mexico? At the four dealers in my area, the only one in that price range is an entry-level 2006 with 15000 miles. Not one new car on the lot goes for under $25K, most over that. Not that it matters. . . we can all beat these prices by simply purchasing pre-owned. Equating brand loyalty to supporting local farmers is disingenuous and a bit odd. Brand loyalty typically references an allegiance to a tradmarked brand or company and is also well-known (read Naomi Klein or related) as a clear symptom of consumer madness. Loyalty is a thick and beautiful human notion, one that should be reserved for those near and dear, not handed over to corporations or (worse) political parties. This reminds me of conversations had with Apple computer owners after it was discovered that Apple has the worst environmental record of all PC manufacturers. A knee jerk defense that should have focused instead on swamping Apple with complaints from its customer base (this is what I did as I have a pair of Apple computers which I find mediocre, nothing special). Brand loyalists are easy to discover - and I've unearthed one by hitting a sore spot. What really matters is that we rebuild/reclaim our suburbs, reduce vehicle usage through legislation, reduce speed limits, and start the process of tearing up roads and rebuilding our cities with mass transit as the primary viable option. Sounds pie-in-the-sky but recall that the U.S. highway system (National Highway Defense) and suburbs sprouted in twenty years post WW2. We can fix our greatest national mistake in half that time. Try Richard Register's 'Eco-Cities' if you feel like lurnin' a bit more. We either give a damn or we don't. Focusing on the 'freedom' provided by our cars is inane. In my eyes, there isn't much difference between a Prius, a Jetta, and a Hummer. They're all the road to ruin. - Tod Brilliant Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:51:43 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2708 Even at 60, for all the hype, the Prius is very far from impressive. In fact, the 1988 Geo Metro dusted it with a real world highway MPG of 60MPH There was no Geo Metro in 1988. It came out in 1989. The high mileage (XFi) version of it was rated 53/58/55. So it got worse city mileage, better highway mileage, and the same combined mileage as the Prius. Under the new standards, the combined mileage on it drops to 46 mpg -- again, the same as the Prius. This is hardly "dusting" it. You're also neglecting the fact that the Metro put out 49 horsepower, weighed 1621 pounds, and was the size of a leprechaun's thumb. It also was crap for quality, had the very rudiments of safety equipment and emissions of the day. No one in their right mind would consider it a comparable vehicle to the current Prius, which is twice as heavy, twice as powerful, much safer, much higher quality, has unbelievably low emissions, and is much much bigger. as do several current makes of Peugot. Not in the US. The hybrids are a distraction, nothing more. They certainly aren't going to help reduce emissions by 90% by 2030, as we need to do. And Peugot's and Geo Metro's are? Heck, they spew only 4% less emissions than a diesel Jetta. Once again, you are so far off base it's not even worth considering. CO2 is not the only emission from the tailpipe, and that's why there isn't even a diesel Jetta for sale at this point in time -- it can't meet current emission standards. Regardless, the Jetta diesel with automatic comes in at 33 mpg combined -- fully 13 mpg less than the Prius. That translates into an additional 2.4 tons of CO2 per year. For the money, grab the Jetta, keep your 48MPG and donate the other $10K to the Earth Policy Network or another organization that is trying like mad to make REAL reductions. Again, you live in a separate reality. The '06 Jetta TDI with automatic was $22,680. The Prius went for $21,725 in 2006 -- or almost $1,000 less than the Jetta. And that's before the $3,150 tax credit which was available for the Prius in '06, which would make the Prius $4,105 more affordable than the Jetta. You're off by over $14,000. Oh, and stop being so darned brand loyal. That's a great attitude. So, I should just get all my food from Monsanto and ignore my local farmer. No reason to be so darn brand loyal. No reason to defend Toyota or Honda - they aren't your friends, they don't give a damn about climate change and they don't care what you think. I can't see how any business is a human's "friend". That would be impossible, wouldn't it? Great cynical attitude you have there. Brand loyalty is for the mentally weak. Brand loyalty is often built on tangible things like quality, customer experience, the good or bad the corporation does in the world, etc. It would be "mentally weak" to ignore all that and insult people with such a broad brush for having rational, ethical preferences. YOU (ecogeeks, ecowarriors) should be way beyond this. You should grow up. Start by checking your facts first. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:17:39 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2707 I see the media's assault on hybrids, and specifically Japanese hybrids, continues. This time we have a new way they're twisting numbers to reach the conclusion that somehow those "wily" Japanese are unethically gaming the system, while the moral and good Americans are being more honest. But let's look at what's really going on here. If you take the old numbers and compare them with the new numbers, you can estimate the number of gallons of gasoline one would consume over a given number of miles and compare that with the old and new EPA numbers. The EPA uses 15,000 miles/yr as their assumption when calculating fuel costs etc, so we'll use that. Over 15,000 miles, here's the "extra" gallons that will be consumed using the new numbers versus the old numbers: Toyota Prius..... 53 Honda Civic Hybrid..... 57 Escape Hybrid FWD..... 59 Escape Hybrid 4WD..... 72 Looks like it's the wily Americans who are the ones who were fudging. Or maybe it's not about fudging and just that the testing procedure changed and now we can see what the results are. Another interesting thing is that the numbers at Greenhybrid for these 4 vehicles come in between 1 and 2 mpg better than the new EPA standard, with the exception of the Civic numbers, which are about 4 mpg better. Looks like Honda's getting screwed the worst with these revisions. - Bund Teddy Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:43:32 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2705 Even at 60, for all the hype, the Prius is very far from impressive. In fact, the 1988 Geo Metro dusted it with a real world highway MPG of 60MPH, as do several current makes of Peugot. The hybrids are a distraction, nothing more. They certainly aren't going to help reduce emissions by 90% by 2030, as we need to do. Heck, they spew only 4% less emissions than a diesel Jetta. For the money, grab the Jetta, keep your 48MPG and donate the other $10K to the Earth Policy Network or another organization that is trying like mad to make REAL reductions. Oh, and stop being so darned brand loyal. No reason to defend Toyota or Honda - they aren't your friends, they don't give a damn about climate change and they don't care what you think. Brand loyalty is for the mentally weak. YOU (ecogeeks, ecowarriors) should be way beyond this. - Tod Brilliant Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:50:00 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/672#comment-2703 The link to my mpg piece: http://odograph.com/?p=543 - odograph Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:21:22 +0100