Comments for Is There Enough Lithium For All Those Electric Cars? at http://www.ecogeek.org , comment 1 to 25 out of 20 comments http://www.ecogeek.org Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:32:26 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-31252 Not to mention, he says, the untold environmental devastation that will take place as the lithium is plundered from the ground. - wedding dresses Tue, 13 Oct 2009 03:59:03 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-28033 One aspect of electric vehicles that I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that batteries only store energy, they are not a source of energy in themselves. What you do by driving an electric vehicle is to merely move the fuel--and pollution--source from the car to a, likely, coal-fired power plant. You've solved neither the fuel resource nor the pollution problem. In fact, you've created yet another source of resource depletion and pollution with all those batteries that have a very limited life span. Outside of huge nuclear fusion capacity--dubious at best--our days of free wheeling consumption are rapidly coming to an end. The best/wisest thing we can possibly do is come to terms with this fact and set about preparing to live accordingly. - frank Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:04:32 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20948 And we can feed our discarded lithium batteries to needy bipolars! Prediction: lithium battery powered vehicles will NEVER occupy a big slice of the transportation pie. Just too awkward, inelegant, an engineering solution. - moby doug Sat, 15 Nov 2008 14:41:51 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20901 The concern for being able to recycle the batteries is not the most important thing. The first thing we need to be concerned with is building the green generating capacity to make the power to charge the cells. If there is sufficient electricity, the lithium can be reprocessed to completely recycle the batteries, like Aluminum is currently produced from bauxite. First, however, we need to get to building sufficient solar/geothermal/wind/tidal power plants to supply the electricity that we consume, and that which will be additionally required to charge up all those electric vehicles you want to put on the road. If you are depending on coal or natural gas to generate the electricity, we may not be around long enough to run out of lithium. In the end, though, we must cut out wasteful consumption, and cars are the second most inefficient mode of transportation (next to luxury private jets, that is). A fully utilized light rail system will consume far less energy per passenger than an electric car. That will also require, however, that we redesign the bulk of our communities in the US and rethink the entire idea of public transit being required to generate a net profit to be sustainable. - Jeremy Wilburn Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:27:22 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20872 Isn't lithium the third most abundant element in the universe? My off-the-cuff guess is we'll be ok. - Dr. Tim Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:36:31 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20849 To hell with cars. Public transport in big cities reduces congestion, pollution and resource consumption. Or you could ride a bike fatty! ;D - Richard Davine Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:26:23 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20848 Another strategy for making batteries last longer: battery chargers that rehabilitate the batteries, even some previously thought dead, not rechargable, etc. A man named John Bedini has been developing this technology for sometime, now. Part of the dynamic are rather high-amplitude, sudden changes in voltage (very square waves at minimal current), and a phenomenon called "radiant energy" is cited as well, probably concurrent with the with abrupt voltage changes of the square waves. See peswiki.com and search for articles on Bedini motors, etc. or check this link: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Renaissance_Charge_Device_by_Energenx Oh, yeah: these chargers have unbelievably low power requirements, too. - Mark Bachelder Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:49:11 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20605 We'll slowly and painfully move away from oil and gas, with many screwups and false starts along the way. Whether it's carbon nanotubes, Lithium, switchgrass, bacteria, or a magic wand, it'll be a long time before we settle into a stable replacement for oil/gas. And like GeneS says (the CapsLock guy), it'll be up to those with the money and power to ever get this thing done. - Lemdog Wed, 05 Nov 2008 10:05:13 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20589 What you're missing is the cost of those cars and that as test cars they were only leased. You could say the same thing for fuel cells in ten years time; "why were they available in 2008 with better range/capacity?"... well because the few leased versions available cost the manufacturers upwards of $250k - $1M a unit (depending on sources), and were not available for purchase. - HankS Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:23:19 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20586 I don't think lithium ion is the future of batteries. Scientists are working on special batteries using carbon nanotube capacitors. They are cheap, printable, flexible, longer lasting, and more environmental friendly. So, I wouldn't be too scared about the possibility of a shortage of lithium ion batteries with a technology like that in development. - Ben Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:47:45 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20579 Light rail is just as expensive, if not more so, than your car. Much of the cost just comes out of your taxes instead of your budget. - Ken Roberts Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:34:37 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20550 MORE OF THE SAME CRAP,BY OIL COMPANIES CREATING DOUBT. 10 YEARS AGO TOYTA WERE MAKING RAV-4 ELECTRIC CAR , THAT I BELEIVE WEIGHS AT LEAST 3000 LB, USIN (BACKWARD) NICKEL METAL HYDROXYDE BATTERIES THAT RUN OVER 120 MILES ON A SINGLE (EVERNIGHT) CHARGE, GM EV1 WITH THEIR FLAWED TECHNOLOGY DID 80 MILES....... AGAIN THAT WAS 10 YEARS AGO. NEXT YEAR, CHEVY VOLT WILL DO ABOUT 20 TO 40 MILES PER CHARGE USING STATE OF THE ART LITHIUM ION BATTERIES, WITH SIMILLAR RESULTS FOR TOYOTA... IS IT ME , OR SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE ?????? FOR THOSE OF NOT FAMILLIAR WITH HISTORY, NI,METAL,HY BATTERY PATENT IS HELD BY CHEVRON, WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW CAR SIZE BATTERIES TO BE PRODUCED. IT SUED TOYOTA IN COURT, AND IT PARTNER MATSUSHITA TO STOP MANUFACTURE OF BATTERIES. TODAY CEO'S OF GM AND MOBIL/EXON'S SIT ON EACH OTHER' BOARD OF DIRECTORS , MAKING SURE THAT OIL BASED TECHNOLOGY IS SAFE, AT LEAST UNTILL OIL RUNS OUT - Gene S Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:56:50 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20549 I used to be on this bandwagon, until discussing the future of transportation with an angel investor, he said to me "cars are stupid". I thought it was a bit eccentric at first, until later that day I got into a car accident. Then again, two weeks later, I was stuck in traffic on the way to the airport, paranoid about my tires, stopping to get gas and giving every dollar in my pocket to do so, it hit me - cars really are stupid. They're net-inefficient, they cost a lot, they lose value all the time, and you have to put fuel and maintenance costs into them to keep them running. Light rail makes a lot more sense. - Patrick Dugan Tue, 04 Nov 2008 05:58:49 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20537 Ok, first of all you have to understand that this question in meaningless in an economic sense. You can never run out of a resource, only have its cost go up to the point where it is no longer economical. So the proper question to ask is how much the price of lithium will rise due to increased demand. The market uses futures markets, stock price, and other mechanisms to predict this. - Ken Roberts Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:18:21 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20533 [quote]What worries me, however, is whether anyone has done anything to significantly improve the lifespan of a Lithium battery. (At a lifespan of two or three years, I would expect there to be a considerable environmental/ energetic toll imposed by constantly having to replace them.) Any news on that?[/quote] There has been work to increase the lifespan. The easiest way is to no fully discharge/recharge the battery. For example, hybrid vehicles discharge to 30% and charge to 80%. This extends the lifespan. Another thing for laptops is to trickle charge about 80% and use smart chargers. Trying to overcharge batteries is the primary thing that decreases the lifespan. This is one reason why you should not leave you cell phone pluged in longer than it needs to recharge as you are decreasing the battery life. [quote]Conclusion - big oil is funneling money to 2-bit French research companies, to undermine the progress of the EV trade. [/quote] Or someone who wants to stop the rollout of electric cars period. Greenpeace comes to mind. They keep trying to block anything that would solve any of their claimed problems that doesn't actually give them more control over people's lives. - EV Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:50:30 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20531 The shorter a material is in supply the stronger the push to recycle that material. This is not great news for our future electric cars, but it could minimize potential environmental damage from lax recycling. - HankS Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:44:45 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20530 Major issue here is the source... "Meridian International Research" appears to be a France-based consultancy company. Their website lists a street address, but nothing else. No CVs of the personnel involved, no indications of their scientific qualifications. Googling Bill Tahil pulls up a bunch of links to WTC/911 conspiracy theories! BUT... most importantly... NO indication whatsoever about who paid for this study! It is not published in a scientific journal, and as far as I can tell it has not been peer reviewed. There is no information on who pays M.I.R. for their work. Conclusion - big oil is funneling money to 2-bit French research companies, to undermine the progress of the EV trade. - Virgil Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:26:31 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20527 deserts have ecologies jerk off - Jake Mon, 03 Nov 2008 12:36:13 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20525 It really doesn't matter. Lets go with the highly controversial view that Li supply will be severly restricted due to lack of supply. All that really means is that we will have to use something else IN ADDITION to Li not in place of it. Use Li until it runs out then recycle and in the mean time research will continue to find other alternatives (some worse, some hopefully better) and probably once an element is newly found to be valuable then much more energy is put into looking to find more reserves. - omegaman66 Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:49:12 +0100 http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2261#comment-20523 I had an interesting conversation about this very issue with a few of my electric car savvy friends yesterday. Yes, batteries will evolve heavily over the next decade or two, but there's still an issue with anything you have to harvest from the ground that's not immediately renewable. Another big issue is the long recharge time for lithium-ion cars, which at present take overnight, although that's changing too, and I think that will spur different battery technologies more than the environmental issue. Another issue: most people don't have garages where they can plug Volts and Zeos into. - Sunshine Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:46:20 +0100