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Re:Plug-Ins Dirtier than Hybrids? (1 viewing) (1) Guest
Re:Plug-Ins Dirtier than Hybrids?
by Christian 4 Months, 2 Weeks ago
The argument is always made that batteries have a detrimental effect on the environment, and negate the benefits of PHEV or HEVs. An entire lifecycle must be considered to validate such a claim. While the production and disposal of batteries is not environmentally benign, the overall impact must be considered. The impact from battery manufacture/disposal is very low compared to the overall impact of producing/using/disposing of an automobile over 200 000 kms. Most studies (Mercedes C-Class LCA for example) put fuel requirements at about 85% of the environmental impact for an automobile. The fuel savings from a PHEV would considerably offset the slightly larger impact of battery manufacture/disposal. This comparison has been done for the HEV, and would come out more beneficial for future PHEVs.
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Re:Plug-Ins Dirtier than Hybrids?
by Alex 4 Months, 2 Weeks ago
I don't think hybrid batteries will end up in landfills in any significant number. Right now probably most small batteries just get thrown out, because they're meant to be disposable. But cars are a different story - you don't just take them to the dump and walk away, even scrapyards will take them apart and recycle much of the material. And with a huge pile of batteries (with a lot of valuable materials in them) in a hybrid, let alone in a plug-in, recycling should offer a big enough payoff that almost all will be recycled.
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Re:Plug-Ins Dirtier than Hybrids?
by Hank 4 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Indeed...hybrid batteries never end up in land fills. Car battery (including regular lead acids) recycling is around 99%. If you go to get a new battery, they won't just take it to recycle it for you, they'll pay you for it. They contain a large amount of valuable metals, NiMH even more than Lead Acid. Li-ions have fewer valuable metals, but also no toxic metals. Lithium, in fact, is "mined" from ground water.

In any case,it's cheaper to recover it from a battery than to "mine" more, so they will definitely be recycled.
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Re:Plug-Ins Dirtier than Hybrids?
by EV 4 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Since the article seems to be groping for straws, lets address them.
QUOTE:
* Power plants produce far more SO2 than cars (especially old coal plants).

I wasn't aware that Solar, Nuclear, Wind and Hydro plants produce SO2. I also not the "especially old coal plants". And these make up what percentage of the power production, exactly? They shouldn't be phrasing it such that it seems like the power for the cars is always going to come from the worst case possible.
QUOTE:
* In areas where coal generates most of the power, PHEVs can produce more carbon than similar sized cars.

Note the phrase "can produce", not "will produce". So, what areas are these where it will produce more, instead of less? Lets see the actual numbers. And further, would the areas where less CO2 is produced more than balance the areas where more CO2 is produced?
QUOTE:
* PHEVs increase electricity demands, which increases coal mining, which is bad news.

Or it could increase other forms of electricity. Why is it assumed that everything is automatically going to come from coal?
QUOTE:
* PHEV batteries are expensive and need a lot of resources to create and recycle.

The same can be said for gasoline refinement. Either way, I've seen ideas for taking the used batteries from old cars and charging them at night and using the electricity during the day to ease peak power requirements. Further, as others have said, large batteries are recycled due to the valuable materials that make it cheaper to recycle old batteries than to mine new materials. Computer circuit boards contain more gold per ton than most gold ore in gold mines, hence the big push by people to recycle them. Same issue here.

The organization writing this is just trolling. Anyone can point out the flaws and "selective phrasings" in their logic. And no, I don't believe it was written by the oil industry.
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Re:Plug-Ins Dirtier than Hybrids?
by RenewablesNow 4 Months, 2 Weeks ago
PHEV's are the critical bridge technology needed to wean the transportation sector off of fossil fuels. I am on a list waiting to convert my 2004 Prius into a plug-in. By using my onsite solar electric system which consists of 31 solar panels on my roof, I will be able to power my car with clean solar power out of the gate. I see value in the environmenal value of products. The vast majority of consumers only care about the dollar value. I want products that produce 0 carbon emissions. Most people, when given the option to buy something that has better environmental features, will only do so when there is cost parity with the conventional polluting product? Why will people not think twice about a larger engine or sunroof or GPS navigation when purchasing a car, but also not think twice about thinking only about the "payback" relating to the increased cost associated with better fuel economy? The irony of this mind set is there is NO payback in a sunroof, or leather seats, etc, or any amenity that has nothing to do with the energy efficiency of the vehicle.
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Re:Plug-Ins Dirtier than Hybrids?
by Matthew 4 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Okay, I see the arguement from both sides, just like in any political debate one side see the other as bad and vice versa. However, I think you are both missing a greater immediate impact of the Plugin vehicles. They get us off of our dependancy of foreign oil. Have you weighed the economic impact that this would have on our country. Also, with a fully realized implementation of Plugin's we will eliminate the infrastructure surrounding the use of oil based vehicles. No need for gas stations, oil change facilities, combustion engine parts, etc. Have you weighed the impact this would have on our country. I think we can develop better and more efficient batteries and learn how to recycle the old ones in lieu of eliminating the far "dirtier" business of combustion engine vehicles! What about the development of a solar panel roof on Plugin cars. They could be manufactured to recharge themselves constantly. This would eliminate the need for the Plugin factor completely if enough effort were put forth into the development of this type of technology.
I guess what I am saying here is that I think the Hybrid vehicle is a pacifier in the mouths of Eco seeking consumers. They don't eliminate our dependence on oil at all. In fact, Detroit just developed another source of revenue in the use of batteries. Wow, another bunch of parts we can markup to the hilt and pass along to the unsuspecting consumer. Great job guys! They don't want to build an all electric vehicle because they know it would revolutionize the auto industry and give consumers something that doesn't continue to need constant maintenance. Let's worry about the impact of batteries when and if we ever get the chance. Until then, there is nothing to argue about.
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