OCT 04

we sure can't get that one in California

The list in question is faulty for Americans because we don't get the Mini D, Yaris 1.0, or Smart Turbo that it refers to. We get the regular petrol Mini, 1.5l Yaris, and NA Smart. Also, the Smart Roadster, number 1 on the list, was discontinued in 2005. And
furthermore, a diesel that does 45MPG is much less clean than a petrol that does 45MPG due to the type of emissions that each fuel creates.

Like you say, the hybrid technology is used to get more out of the same car. Add hybrid equipment to any of the cars on that list and you'll see major improvements in their efficiency. The biggest point people are missing is that yes, these cars are good, but they are not as good as they could be which the Prius shows. The fact that the Prius is roughly twice the size and weight of all of those cars really says it all.

These studies, like the CNW Hummer-VS-Prius story, are just FUD.

I'm all for fuel efficiency. So say I can make my car twice as efficient, so I can spend half as much in gas, and emit half as much as I did before. Great!

But wait! Maybe now I can have twice as much car and still pay as much and pollute as much as I did before. Just look at all the SUVs just getting a little bigger, y'all.

ever. Really, don't go there. : )

So USA doesn't have some of the most efficient cars available to it - I guess that is the American market used to large cars and that needs to change. i.e. Americans need to demand more economic and smaller cars.

But when you say the Prius is more practicable for American families, you make it sound like Americans *have* to have larger cars?! That has to be false, even if much of the USA infrastructure is based around driving everywhere, I can't see why Americans must have bigger cars than elsewhere in the world.

Yes, maybe most Americans don't "have" to have larger cars, since most pickup trucks I see on the road are empty and are not hauling anything. However, Americans, on average, are pretty tall and there is an obesity epidemic hitting the nation. So why they may not "need" larger cars, they do need cars where they can fit comfortably. Of course, it would be better if everyone just slimmed down. Just imagine the mpg benefits! lol

I have to disagree with the most advanced technology on the road. The prius has some innovative uses of Existing technologies - nothing is truly revolutionary. I believe that the Prius and current hybrids will become an evoulotionary cul de sac. The internal comustion engine has been around for 100 years and has been making small increments in speed and power for all that time and cars got faster because that is what the manufacturers thought we wanted. The prius (and other hybrids) are important, because they offer a change of direction, and the ability for the car buying public to express our displeasure with the direction things have been going. In this respect they are especially important in the US where consumers have not had the same choice of small cars, and even the ones they do get are uprated versions of models offered else where or designed in the US and given the same name as models sold elsewhere. (check out Honda Civic's around the world) What needs to happen now is for car manufacturers to design engines and cars that use less fuel for a given performance rating, rather than strive to get more and more power from the same engine. One of the first examples of this is shortly to go onsale in the UK - the VW Polo blue motion 74Mpg and 99g/kg - all for about 12000 pounds. This is a truly green car. Hybrids, like Nuclear power will never be truly green for they hide their biggest problem, how can something be truly green if its disposal causes more long term issues than the problem they seek to avert. would you want to live beside a nuclear waste dump? or even a Prius battery recycling centre??

You know swampy, what might evolve away is the distinction 'hybrid.'

How many people get hopped up about multiple valves per cylinder? That used to be a big deal. As were 'V-8s' and 'turbos' and .....

We get caught up in techs and categories but over time they just become 'cars'.

My counter prediction is that 10 years from now you won't see the word 'hybrid' on the side of a car ... because that's just the way cars will be made.

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While not available to most the US, and not practical for everybody, I'd like to add my own car to the list. It is a Honda Civic GX, which is a dedicated natural gas vehicle. It is extraordinarily clean burning and less expensive to operate than its gasoline equivalent.
http://www.civicgx.com

I'd like to comment on the assertion that hybrids "provide the exact same car with better gas mileage". In reality they provide something exactly like the same car with better mileage. What would really be green would be to use the exact same cars and make them get better mileage.

Last week we learned about Bart Grabman's project to convert an old Super Beetle to an electric car (and Kudos to him - I'm a high school teacher and I just love to see young people engaged and working on real problems). I've never seen it mentioned here but there are commercial kits available to convert VW Rabbits and Chevy S-10s to EVs. There are also "universal" conversion kits available.

The next logical step would be to re-manufacture small engines to spin turbines and combine them with the adequate battery technology now available and something like the new hub motors they're reportedly building the all electric Mini around.

I believe that such series hybrid retrofits are feasible and each one would keep a car out of the junkyard and almost totally avert the staggering embodied energy of a brand new vehicle. I'd even bet a car like my '92 Camry (which is in fine condition aside from some paint issues) could be given a second life this way.

How many mpg would a new car have to get to offset it's carbon footprint during its service life? I don't think it matters how "green" a new vehicle is. If we don't get past our belief that everything is disposable we're not going to substantially change the direction we're headed.

The Yaris would probably be a bit more practical for the 'average American family' if Toyota had sold the four door model here as well. It's quite frustrating to see them all over Canada, but unavailable across the border. That said, given that the 'average American family' is quite small (I believe if you check your demographics, you'd find the average new car owner's family to hover nearer to one than two children), a Yaris still seems quite feasible.

Do you really want to be green?

Then how about this; stop purchasing or leasing cars on 3 year cycles. In fact, stop purchasing cars altogether and keep what you have now for the rest of your life. Then spend the money you save on converting the vehicle you now have to CNG or other alternative fuels; or electricity even.

Even if you don't convert your current car to an alternative fuel, keeping the car you have now for the rest of your life, regardless of its current MPG, is far greener than purchasing a new one.

Do the math:

Take the amount of waste and pollution created mining the resources to create you new car and multiply that by

The amount of waste and pollution created converting those resources into plastic dashboards, seats, components, etc. and multiply that by

The amount of waste produced by the manufacturer when building a new car.

Your new car is far less green than you think.

Period.

I think the guy that said in the earlier comment that gas is more environmentally friendly comparted to to diesel is wrong. Although diesel appears to have more exhaust, it does not create the carbon monoxide that gas discharge does create, thus hurting our ozone and creating a warmer planet

Greg makes a very good point!

Buying a new car every few years is the worst thing you can do - financially AND environmentally!

My last vehicle was a 4 cylinder Ford Ranger that I bought new in 1990. I was strict to my adherence of the manufacturer's suggested service plan the whole time I owned it. That enabled me to drive my truck for 17 years without a single problem! I paid the truck off in the first 5 years but continued to make monthly payments in a savings account. When it was time to buy a new car I had enough cash that I didn't need a loan. I bought a Scion xA with every conceivable option and I am quite happy. I plan to drive this one for the next 17 years. Even thought it gets 35MPG my car will be greener than a person that owns 3 to 5 cars during the same length of ownership no matter what gas mileage they get.

How many readers remember the EV1?
This little car was created by default when G.M. had no choice but to comply with California's clean air act. When the Oil man G.W. Bush and his friend Dick Cheny achieved power, they sent lawyers to have the law repealed in California and then they found and destroyed every EV1 created by G.M.. Some people claim that electric batteries will cause pollution. The new Ion batteries can and will exist for years before they will need to be recycled. The EV1 worked great using only lead acid batteries. The only people who will lose a slight amount of income will be the Oil producers, but they can regain economic strength by investing in alternative energy sources.

And we're running out of it along with fossil fuels. Swampy noted that the internal combustion engine has been around for 100 years with very little changes. Blame the oil and auto companies, blame the politicians and blame the public. Lord knows there's plenty of blame to go around. Suddenly, being "Green" is in vogue. But where is the American technology when we need it most? Creating iPods, iPhones and video games so graphically enhanced that you'd swear the guy you killed on your video screen got his blood on your shirt. Let's stop working so hard to get more toys and other nonsense to play with while you're driving the car and start devoting ways to make use of all the garbage we create and tap into the natural gas it creates and use it as fuel. Let's find the solution in the ocean: split the water into it's components of Oxygen and Hydrogen and harness the Hydrogen for fuel while creating more oxygen. I don't proclaim to be a scientist or technician, but surely if we can dedicate the most intelligent and gifted people to make all the wizardry we simply "must have" to survive, why not divert their energies to finding new sources of clean energy that we simply must have...to survive.

Joseph Raglione had it right above about the EV1. Know why they gathered them all up and crushed them in the desert? Because they worked too well. Fewer moving parts meant fewer repairs= fewer replacement parts needed to be manufactured.

Ford had an electric battery Ranger -- killed them all

Honda did it too.

The car makers are unable to see a profitable future for themselves with electric cars or any other alternatiive fuel source. They need to hire some eco geeks for creative car designs and some financial geeks to help them get creative enough to see profit in the future

from everything I have read, Biodiesel is the least polluting and smallest carbon footprint of any liquid fuel. I saw one article in TDI club that stated it was less polluting than electric vehicles unless the electricity was solar or geothermal. Even then it was argued that the energy used to build the PV cell and thermal plants polluted more. I am currently making my own biodiesel and see a huge difference in the exhaust of my F250. I'm even happier that my dollar (vote) stays out of big oil, and especially the Middle East.
BTW Diesels can last 1 million miles when cared for. Not to mention, they are about 30% more efficient then gas. My station wagon gets 600 miles to a tank (14 gallons) broken out to around 70% highway/30% city.
Can you beat that?

I've been waiting for the perfect car to fit my needs and desire to be eco-friendly. In preparation, I read everything I see to help in deciding. I found this blog to be good reading.

I'm waiting until my 7 year old car is no longer in good working condition. So...I've done the best I can to have it be more fuel efficient. This means allowing enough time for travel to not feel rushed, using cruise control for all streets, not just for highway driving. This may mean going a little slower than the general flow of traffic in order to work. And, just because the speed limit is 70 m.p.h., I no longer feel the need to go 70 m.p.h. This has reduced my average from 19.2 to 24.7. Plus, I'm a lot more relaxed when I get to my destination. Go figure!

I think anything which improves environmental responsibility is great. Please don't misunderstand.

The problem that I see with all of these rants - as a lot of people aren't really putting forth any evidence - is that we all have a tendency to forget what motivates most people. Pain.

It can be financial, physical, emotional, or economic. Yet, it is some sort of discomfort that motivates us.

Here in the US, we have some of the lowest prices for dino-fuels on the planet. When gas hits $8.00 a gallon, then people will want to change. However, what they'll change will likely be government intervention in fuel prices.

You'll find Europe paying upward of $7.00 a gallon (Sources: European Commission, Oil Bulletin, and EIA, Weekly Petroleum Status Report, Table 16). That will motivate you to change.

EVs are really cool, but where do you charge them. If it's not solar, then it's not truly green. Coal, petroleum, natural gas, and nuclear power (lastly) are what charges an EV. They may be cleaner, but that pollution is somewhere.

There isn't mass transit where I live. Do you have any idea why? Because nobody would use it - it's too inconvenient. It would be a lot more convenient at $8 a gallon.

Yet, responsibility for the sake of responsibility is not a bad thing. Recycling one aluminum can saves about 95% of the energy required to make a new one. (Sources: Heloise. Heloise: Hints for a Healthy Planet, p. 56; 101 Ways to Save Money and Save Our Planet, p. 122.) Yet, we'll throw it in the garbage at the gas station instead of carrying it home to the recycle bin.

If you want to change the world, then the most efficient way to do it is pain. I absolutely hate to say it, but it's true.

Now, I've had my rant.

I'm still reeling from the thought of having to live next to a hybrid battery landfill. How is that green? >:( >:(

None of the online articles published recently (nor none of the comments attached) have addressed another alternative fuel - that of using waste cooking oils to power one's vehicle. General Motors provides a kit for around $2,000 (USD) which will convert one's standard gasoline-powered vehicle to a cooking oil-powered vehicle, and will also provide a filtering device for purifiying used cooking oil.

Consider the benefits: Many restaurants and fast-food joints must actually pay to dispose of their used cooking oil. Imagine their surprise when someone asks to buy their used cooking oils to fill up their tank! Of course, the exhaust emissions might make one's vehicle smell like a rolling hamburger or fried chicken eatery (exterior-wise), but that's half the fun!

I was listening to a radio program around a year ago, and a couple of guys actually made a round trip between New York City and San Diego, CA using nothing but waste cooking oils (and every so often pure vegetable oil bought from a warehouse store such as Costco). I understand they were driving a GM-manufactured vehicle, and got almost the same mpg as a standard gasoline-powered engine.

Comments, anyone?

Who remembers President JFK's famous proposal to get the USA to the moon and back back in the 60's? He challenged the scientists and engineers of the United States to accomplish this seemingly daunting task, which almost everybody thought was impossible. Even Neil Armstrong, the first human being to ever set foot on the moon, had his doubts! Yet, the scientists and engineers of nationally funded and operated NASA accomplished this task in less than a decade.

Where is that kind of leadership now? I believe the presidential candidates need to be scrutinized for their potential in providing this challenge to our elite. We need to establish a national movement in this country to lead the world by example. The oil companies should change their focus to alternative energies. To influence these oil monsters to pursue this action, the government needs to give economic credits to non polluters, and penalties to those who pollute. Of course, a line would have to be drawn...of which scientists should brief the gov't on this line.

Of course this action isn't going to be taken by the current administration...so it is now up to us (the voters) to go out in the masses and vote for the most qualified candidate to make a change in energy and environmental policy. Although trade-offs need to be made, these issues need to weighed effectively.

We need to make sure that we vote for a great leader for president, and continue to vote for our congress men/women to initiate change. What if, instead of voting for the congressmen/women by the recognizability; we voted for the most qualified. Take 10-20 minutes a week around the time of the elections to read about each candidate. Go out and vote for the person who is not only qualified for the position, but also most likely to invoke an environmental/energy revolution. And also, don't be afraid to sacrifice a little!

This year at Burning Man there were many displays on green issues. One display about the enormous fuel usage and pollution of ocean container ships calculated that the fuel used to transport each Prius from Japan was greater than the fuel saved by the car over its lifetime. Something to think about.

The bottom line here is that Americans need to get with the program. We all live in a world with a rapidly changing environment and we have less control of world events now than ever before. We all breath the same air and drink the same water and we all have to work together to solve these problems facing the world. That means joining TEAM WORLD and stop feeling that we have some God given right to keep doing what we feel like doing because we are Americans. It is time we start to lead before we sink along with everyone else. What ever happened to American ingenuity? We can't wait until all of the knuckleheads in Washington decide to make a decision. My criteria for a candidate is the less time associated with Washington, the better. Too much time in Washington means too much baggage.

Yes, it's interesting but not practical outside of a limited number of users. Let's face it, the entire nation can't run on used cooking oil.

Okay, so this is a bit off-topic. BUT relevant. Toyota's Prius according to this site is a great innovation leading the auto sector in the right direction. But doesn't it bother anyone that Toyota spends tonnes of money on a massive brain-wash of an ad campaign, telling consumers that they are the greenest car company? Now if you answered no, consider the context. They lobbied hard (which is costly) to have the Hill-Terry bill passed as opposed to a bill that was proposed earlier in the year that called for higher mpg standards (35 mpg I believe). If they are so green and are luring all of the enviro-conscious consumers on the basis that they are green, then why lobby against the "better bill"? Then they have the nerve to tell the North American public that they are doing something positive by backing the "Hill-Terry Bill", all the while engaging in back-door politics to have the better bill brushed under the table! There is something inherently sinister in Toyota's actions. I will think twice before buying their Prius.

When I read Chad's reference to JFK's man to the moon speech, I thought of Carter's 1978 televised energy policy speech.
It's worth a read.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/c...nergy.html

Someone mentioned that it is greener to keep your car longer. I don't understand this because the car you trade in or sell will eventually be driven by someone else, right? So what's greener about you driving the car vs. someone else? Please explain, as I have always wondered this.

It's a lot more complicated than the initial simplistic assumptions seem to indicate, but the reason that keeping your car longer is better is that fewer cars are built and fewer cars are sold.

Compare the case of everyone in the country buying a new (or used) car every 3 years for the rest of their life vs. buying a car every 9 years (and not junking cars because they start to break down, but fixing them instead, partly because the reduced supply of used cars will drive the price up quickly).

Clearly 1/3 as many cars are built. However, the real impact is more subtle, because the average age of those cars goes up as well, and older cars have vastly worse impact on the environment than newer ones. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

However, all that said, I suspect that in the long run it's probably slightly better to drive cars into the ground than grind them up after

Ok, so I have been reading through all of the hype and fearmongering of the green crowd about Prius' and Honda Hybrids and Uber diesels and am always left feeling a bit inadequate.

See, here is my dilemma, I don't drive a hybrid, a diesel or an electric car. I have to drive my kids to school, piano, soccer and myself to work to pay for said kids. So I tried to ease my fears of inadequacy by thinking long and hard about what I am doing right! I haven't purchased a new car (hybrid or otherwise) in over 6 years. My daily driver is a 43 yr old VW Bug that is properly tuned and gets on average 35 mpg, not to mention the fun factor.

I don't have Sirius, onstar, GPS or dual cup holders, but what I do have is a car that gets the same economy as most new "efficient" vehicles and I am recycling to boot! My insurance is at motorcycle levels, I can't go too fast, so I don't have much to worry about as far as tickets, and I feel like I am in a mini parade when I drive around town. Plus I can find my car in the parking lot sea of Prius'.

So I thought I would just throw that out there for those who can't afford a $30,000 eco-friendly Prius... (PS, for $30,000 you can buy approx. 12 VW's in top running condition...)

Driving style affects mileage more than most people realize. I started teaching myself to drive for minimum fuel consumption in my '92 Geo Metro about a year ago. There's a lot of information on the web about driving techniques for high mileage and there's a pseudo-cult of "hypermilers" pushing the limits ever higher with top 10 lists at sites like gassavers.org routinely above 60 MPG in non-hybrid vehicles. Hypermiling is an art form and after only a year I'm no expert but I have seen big improvements. On my last tank I got 57 MPG. I lent my car to a friend for a road trip and he got only 38 MPG. When most people drive they simply focus on getting from A to B as quickly as possible. If you shift your focus to minimizing fuel consumption, you'd be surprised how much fuel you can save. You might also be surprised how little extra time it takes you to get from A to B.

All this is to say that keeping that old clunker on the road (if done right) may be the greenest option other than simply driving less or not driving at all.

The best way to achieve green for America is to let the Free Markets work. We haven't seen free markets for decades in America. The government wants to have its hands in almost every aspect. One of the largest sectors that the government has its hands in is in the Energy area. They put millions and billions of dollars in certain area of the energy sector, but it might be the right area and waste millions of dollars going after a certain type of energy that will never come forward. Let the Free Markets work, which means let the consumers decide what kind of cars they want to drive and what kind of energy source should be focused on. If the Consumers want higher MPG then the companies will make it for them. Car companies will make the cars that the people will want. I know some of you will say that the car companies aren't doing it. If the old car companies refuse to follow what the people want, then its time for new car companies to pop up and make the cars that the people want. I know there are some car companies starting up, with 100% electric cars, like the Testa Motors.

Instead of complaining that car companies aren't building Green enough cars. Use the free market solution, create your own car company and make green cars. If there is a big enough demand for green cars, then you will deffinitly get investors into your company.

Keep the hands of the Government out of the energy sector cause they only mess things up and Plus its UnConstitutional for them to be controlling the energy sector anyway. No where in the Constitution give them the power to be in the energy sector.

Government is not to solution to fix things, government is force. The more force you put onto people the less free they are. Use the Free Markets to your advantage and create a Green Car Company

The best way to achieve green for America is to let the Free Markets work. We haven't seen free markets for decades in America. The government wants to have its hands in almost every aspect. One of the largest sectors that the government has its hands in is in the Energy area. They put millions and billions of dollars in certain area of the energy sector, but it might be the right area and waste millions of dollars going after a certain type of energy that will never come forward. Let the Free Markets work, which means let the consumers decide what kind of cars they want to drive and what kind of energy source should be focused on. If the Consumers want higher MPG then the companies will make it for them. Car companies will make the cars that the people will want. I know some of you will say that the car companies aren't doing it. If the old car companies refuse to follow what the people want, then its time for new car companies to pop up and make the cars that the people want. I know there are some car companies starting up, with 100% electric cars, like the Testa Motors.

Instead of complaining that car companies aren't building Green enough cars. Use the free market solution, create your own car company and make green cars. If there is a big enough demand for green cars, then you will deffinitly get investors into your company.

Keep the hands of the Government out of the energy sector cause they only mess things up and Plus its UnConstitutional for them to be controlling the energy sector anyway. No where in the Constitution give them the power to be in the energy sector.

Government is not to solution to fix things, government is force. The more force you put onto people the less free they are. Use the Free Markets to your advantage and create a Green Car Company

Frankly there is a lot of ideas about this in the responces. yet even the positive of all these comment shave some negative support. Also Is there even one like responce to a previous responce that supports fully of another. NOPE!!

Like the Free Market post, Government is a force. It is a Force that pushes for actions and results. How about this idea instead of crying and bickerng, think about getting groups and communities pushing one form in a group. Doing this will get better recognition, be more visable to the people that need to see it/should. Our US economy thrives on numbers and you won't get numbers by pushing many of the same but opposite theories or needs. Takeing a opinion and backing the politics whoever I will blame them too. Allthese Dammed Republicans are out for one thing easy money. Like a drug dealer when his customers become scetchy about the dealers ways or product, they will run and hide and let the other guys do what needs to be done. Lets use this attack while getting a more efficient car that everyone can afford, or just plain take what you can get and use it as long as repairs are acceptable. this is infact the best responce in this thread whether you like it or not. Don't let teh government be it self, let us govern what we demand and stop settling for less just becuase you want to look cool. Fact be said get a ghetto car and fix it to your likeing, becuase in the end everything is the same. It's is all about yoru perception and how we think, whats hard is gettin on the same exact page and using the powers we are given without falling short and weak as a country!!!

I know where I'm at, and I know this won't be recieved well, but someone mentioned that "this current administration" won't do anything about getting cars to be greener. Am I the only one who remembers that Bush made a speech less than 4 years ago where he called on the auto industry to build a car that would decrease our dependence on foreign oil? Am I the only one who remembers that he authorized something like a billion or maybe half a billion dollars to subsidize the research?

I know Bush-bashing is a national past time, and probably more so here, but give the guy a little credit, he isn't quite Satan incarnate.

The Prius is far from as green as everyone thinks. Firstly, its fuel economy is less than that of a BMW saloon, despite its hybrid electric system. But whats most annoying is the failure to acknowledge the huge environemntal impact a cars actual PRODUCTION has on the world. In the UK alone, emmissions from transport contribute on 0.01% to the entire worlds pollution. Yet the manufacture of a car like the Prius has a massive environmental impact. It is made from very few recycled parts or materials, it is constucted in several locations around the world and assembled at another, meaning huge quantities of large components (including its hybrid electric battery) are shipped all over the world, requiring huge amounts of energy and causing pollution from transit. The carbon footprint of the Prius is greater than that of the new Mercedes S-Class (first car ever to receive an environmental certificate from the German Commission on Technical Compliance) It is the idea that makes the Prius sell and not the reality of its 'green' credentials.

Why don't they have a wind generator in the boot? You could park the car, open the boot, deploy the wind generator and do your shopping.
I know if I had an electric car that I would build a small wind generator that I could deploy when the car wasn't being used. I know the wind isn't there all the time but it seems like a simple, easy to deploy idea.

Influence can be defined as the power exerted over the minds and behavior of others. A power that can affect, persuade and cause changes to someone or something. In order to influence people, you first need to discover what is already influencing them. What makes them tick? What do they care about? We need some leverage to work with when we’re trying to change how people think and behave.

Thanks N Regards
Coetsee


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