JAN 31

Wind turbines don't seem to have changed very much in the last few decades. Yes, they've gotten a heck of a lot bigger. And I will tell you that the innards of the devices have been the subject of industrial espionage and patent wars.

But they look pretty much the same.

Which might lead you to believe that there's not much we can do to make wind turbines much more efficient than they already are. But "FloDesign" seems to think that is not the case. For the first time since I started EcoGeek, I'm seeing horizontal axis wind turbine that doesn't look like a great-big propeller.

What it does look like is a great big jet engine. And maybe that makes sense, as jet engines are more efficient than props in driving airplanes. I'm afraid I can't explain the technology, because fluid dynamics are way over my head, but the designers of the turbine are making some fascinating claims.

There is a theoretical limit to how efficient wind turbines can be. But the designers of this turbine say that it removes whatever limitation makes that constant apply, and thus these turbines can be far more efficient and cost-effective:

A stator-rotor turbine cascade design is used to more effectively extract energy from the flow. For a given wind velocity, a MEWT having a maximum diameter 50% smaller than an existing 3-Bladed HAWT can potentially generate over 50% more power, and can potentially cost 25-35% less than the same HAWT.

So we're talking about a 25% decrease in cost with 50% more power generated. If I'm doing the numbers right, that makes wind significantly cheaper than coal throughout the entire Midwest United States. But this is still at the early stages of research and development. There needs to be a lot of work done before we'll know anything for sure. But I will say that FloDesign is officially in my RSS reader...I can't wait to hear what news they've got next.

Comments (18)

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Very smart idea!
written by Angelo, February 01, 2008

I always hate it when someone thinks of something genius before me. This is a great idea and it makes sense with a turbine design. I'll definitely be watching this project too!

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written by Magnulus, February 01, 2008

If my calculations are correct, this halves the price of the same amount of electricity. Now, I'm not a mathematician, nor an electricity expert, but here's my reasoning:

Let's assume that 100 units of energy costs 100 moneys. In the new system, 150 units of energy costs 75 moneys. Old system costs 300 moneys for 300 units while new system costs 150 moneys for 300 units.

Am I right or is my lobotomy showing again?

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give it a try
written by Alex, February 01, 2008

A shrouded design exempts you from the Betz limit, which says an open rotor can only get 59% of the power out of the wind approaching it, and you can also spin a shrouded rotor faster, which makes it both more efficient and easier to run a generator off of.

But I'm not convinced about cost, as this design looks like it will use far more material than a standard rotor. And it can't be turned out of the wind in a storm, so it will likely need to be highly overbuilt... but hey, give it a shot.

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written by Bill Martin, February 01, 2008

I suspect you've misread a misleading web site. My guess would be that their turbine, at best, only cuts the cost of the rotor by 25% - NOT the cost per watt of the power produced. I see nothing in the rotor design that would lower the cost of the generator inside, or of the tower, or of the cost of land or cost of capital or the cost of regulatory approval or the cost of maintenance involved. All elements of the total cost of the power produced.

I suspect you could be given a free rotor and not reduce the cost of the power produced by 25%.

Bill

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cheaper generator
written by Alex, February 01, 2008

Bill - you're of course correct about the tower, land, etc. Actually, the tower could even cost more if this thing is heavier than a normal turbine. But the rotor will spin significantly faster, so you can use a smaller, cheaper generator.

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More than one on a pole?
written by What is electricity?, February 01, 2008

Not only may these rotors be more efficient and cheaper, but it looks like they can be stacked more than one on a pole. So for the same area of land, we can have more rotors. Is this possible, or just an illusion of the illustration?

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Jet engines vs. propeller engines
written by Ben, February 01, 2008

FYI: Jet engines are not more efficient than propeller engines. The differences in the specific fuel consumption is quite amazing. That is why they still use piston engines in giant ships.

However, the place where jet engines win are two fold:
1) they have dramatically better power to weight ratio and so when you look at a jet airplane as a whole and you factor in the amount of proportional additional weight that you would have to carry if you used a piston engine of that size then the efficiency of the overall aircraft goes down. Just as an example with bogus numbers: a plane using a jet engine might weigh 3 tons and be able to carry 2 tons of payload. To carry the same payload as fast using a piston engine the plane would weigh 5 tons. Therefore the benefit of the better specific fuel consumption of the piston engine is lost due to the need to carry so much additional weight.
2) turbine engines are much simpler in operation (basically boils down to fewer moving parts) and therefore the ratio of maintenance to operational time needed to maintain a certain level of reliability is much better for a turbine engine. Since maintenance is so expensive for the required reliability level turbine engines win.

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written by Mark, February 02, 2008

Here is what I've seen is currently the cheapest form of wind generating equipment ...http://www.massmegawatts.com/index.htm#... it doesn't have to be big and bleeding edge efficient, just cheap to build...

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Kite generator
written by Tim Craig, February 03, 2008

I have been thinking around any concept of generating energy from the modulating tensions of very high altitude kites, each guided by computer ailerons. They would work in sets of three, transmitting the power down to the base station via ‘three phase’ alternating tensions picked-up on motorised/regenerative winches.

This idea above made me think of flying a huge wing at a similar altitude which gives enough lift to support these turbines.

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Kite generator
written by MB-BigB, February 03, 2008

For Tim - there's been a couple of stories about wind power being generated by kites - Wired had one back in 06 - http://www.wired.com/science/d.../10/71908, and the San Fran Chronicle had an article about various research going on this field last spring -

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Finally, Innovation
written by TRUONG, February 10, 2008

I have been waiting for something truly new. It looks like these guys have figured it out! It even looks awesome. They are true egg heads, the inventors are straight out of aerospace. I am willing to bank on this one. I want one!

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How do I Invest
written by bob, February 23, 2008

Their predictions are actually conservative. I talked to the owner and have looked over the documentation. Profs at MIT agree it's revolutionary. I sent an e-mail to the owner asking about inverstment. I can't seem to get them to take my money. Now that's a real change. Does anybody know how to invest?

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watch mobile phone
written by ion cell cleanse, June 05, 2008

watch mobile phone http://www.aokmp.com/products.asp?cid=2

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wedding dress for sale
written by wedding dress, July 18, 2008

wedding dress http://www.fashionweddingdress.com

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Someone with money
written by Matchstickwarrior, September 07, 2008

I've been considering the ups and downs of this concept for a couple of years. It seemed like a natural progression of wind generation to move from rotors to higher pressure turbines. Good to see that someone with significantly more money and knowledge than me is thinking along the same lines.

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Wind Tamer
written by WindyTimes, October 18, 2008

A company in New York already has a diffuser augmented turbine in testing with patents.
http://www.windtamerturbines.com/index.asp

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Jet engines v Propeller engines
written by Fred, November 17, 2008

Ben partly identifies the problems with jet engines, but there are more. The larger diameter of propellers gives greater thrust efficiency to propellers which is why the turbofans are getting larger and larger. Another detail is that jet engines are not only somewhat less efficient at full power than say diesel engines, but they are waaayyy less efficient at partial power! A jet plane in the sky is reported to use only about 5 to 10% of the power at takeoff, thus a small diesel engine to drive the turbofan at cruise may be in the future of commercial aviation!

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Move the generation closer to the need
written by Chris, December 01, 2009

Another advantage of the compact / enclosed design is that it can be used in areas that are heavily developed. You can't put a huge 3 bladed fan anywhere in a city because of the risks of damage that would occur if it comes down. I can see these enclosed models mounted on skyscrapers with no such concerns. Meaning that the power can be generated closer to the place it is being used rather than in the middle of a cornfield hundreds of miles away.

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