My luck
written by Bill , April 02, 2008

Great, and I just installed a new conventional GE water heater last month! A good way to save in the meantime is to install a heat trap ($20) and insulate your pipes!

...
written by Magnulus , April 02, 2008

In Edinburgh, those hybrid heaters won't help much, as we have winter from november to the end of April, but that tankless one is the kind of heater that makes me very annoyed that I live in an old flat that I'm not allowed to do ANYTHING with.

Unless I could legally force my land lord to change that ancient thing we have at the moment.

...
written by Erik , April 02, 2008

I have looked into the electric demand water heaters, Bosch makes one. The Bosch model consumes 19,200 watts in use, requires a separate service, and 8 gage cable (think truck battery cable size). Pretty long time to payback with the high installation cost.

The GE "hybrid" looks interesting.

Gas Heaters
written by josh , April 02, 2008

I don't know about you guys, but where I'm from a lot of people use natural gas heaters. They do tankless versions, which are more efficient than the traditional tanks. The big thing is that natural gas heaters are already more efficient than electric ones, especially when your electricity comes from coal.

...
written by ljd , April 02, 2008

And better than that, supplement it with a solar water heater...

Magnulus
written by AndyM , April 03, 2008

Magnulus,

The way I read the article, the heat exchanger would be inside the house. As such, I don't think it to be any great benefit in the winter. However, here in South Carolina come August...

Regards,
Andy

??
written by Drew , April 03, 2008

The first one seems like a standard gas water heater that I've been using for the last 12 years at least. (This one the last 2 http://www.towngas.com/tgweb/e...=14&con=45). So I can't see what the big deal is. One gas heater per area that needs it.

No Gas
written by Chris , April 03, 2008

Unfortunately my neighborhood has no gas in it so a gas based tankless heater is out of the question. I'll have to wait for the hybrid unit next year and hope that it won't cost an arm and a leg.

...
written by Shaun , April 03, 2008

Were building a new house and putting in two of the tankless. Our neighborhood also does not have nat gas so we are putting in a 500 gal propane tank.

Vertex
written by Jason Stone , April 03, 2008

If you can't wait until 2009, you'll want to look at A.O. Smith's VERTEX. The tank based system is 90% efficient vs. a tankless efficiency of 84%. It was developed in conjunction with the Department of Energy. Green-celebrity Ed Bagley, Jr. is a big fan as is Jay Leno who put one in his massive garage. I'm testing one in my own home for use in our future home projects. I can't comment on the utility reduction yet since it's brand-spanking new (I'm told I'm the first to own one in St. Louis, MO), but I'm happy to share soon.

You can read more about the Vertex at
http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/rg-vertex.html

Cost vs Savings
written by Gordon , April 04, 2008

It would be nice to know what the cost would be. I am sure they are stressing the savings as an offset for the higher cost. The issue is not only the payback time, but the NPV.

Tankless Already Exists
written by josh , April 04, 2008

You can find electric and gas tankless heaters on Home Depot's and Lowe's websites. I'm not that great at math, so I'm not sure how much they save overall, but they are much more efficient than the old water heaters. We have very hard water, so water heaters, washers, etc. go out sooner, I'm not sure how a tankless one would hold up.

How much?
written by Mark , April 05, 2008

It would be nice to get an estimate cost on the 2009 (4th qtr) hybrid unit.

Hank Green Follower
written by Seth Murphy , April 05, 2008

I'm currently installing a Bradford & White 75 gallon natural gas water heater and a Heliodyne Solar Hot Water Panel to pre-heat the water. The goal is to get down to 10 therms (100,000 British Thermal Units per therm) of natural gas per month at a rate of $1.30 per therm or $13 per month. I'm aiming for as many free BTU's per month from the sun as possible with natural gas as my back up. Personally, I prefer NG, as 38% of local electricity in Northern Washington is still coming from coal fired plants.

Check out Paul Scheckel's great book "The Home Energy Diet" for great ways to reduce your hot water costs and carbon footprint now or in the future with the new GE system.

Speaking of which, if the new GE system can be tied into a solar hot water system it should be a real win all around -- especially if your local power company is burning something other than coal.

...
written by Bob Wallace , April 05, 2008

I've been using Bosch/Aquastar propane tankless heaters for the last 18 years or so. Based on casual comparisons with someone using a propane fired tank type heater I'm using about half the gas.

Bosch states in their literature that hard water is not a problem for tankless heaters.

...
written by lawstud , April 05, 2008

why bother with electricity for instant hot water. Natural gas is a lot cheaper in CA. Considering electricity in CA one of the largest markets in America tiers the use. The more electricity the exponentially higher cost to pay. the last thing I want is some more electrical appliances to push the bill much higher.

Gas Water Heaters
written by Tony P , April 06, 2008

Here's the issue though. National Grid here in RI is already asking for a distribution rate increase because people are using less gas.

This means any savings are pretty much moot.

...
written by Go Solar , April 06, 2008

you could always go 120% solar with ENERGY CONVERSION DEVICES, INC Solar PV Shingles.

The Other Screw/Nut ....
written by wheelus , April 06, 2008

It’s not what others do that counts, it’s the individual who finally decides to do the “correct”/moral/that-which-benefits-all that matters. Greed and fear will always be that. Industry, be it commerce, politics, economics, science, religion and that bastion of instability, the screw or nut called the “human being”, will always wait to be exposed before dragging his heels to “do the right thing”, begrudgingly. Why so? Beause the typical human do not really know much about himself which means he doesn’t really know what or why he is born for. And when a person is so, and that means 99.99% of idiotics/screws or lunatics/nutters called “people”, regardless of whether he believes or knows what he is really born for, he judges others first. Never himself. Meaning?

Who voted, say, for “that” idiot/lunatic? Your neighbour? You, of course. So if we know why we exist, we’ll always do the “right” thing which brings us back to square one. The other guy will ALWAYS be your problem. To solve the problem completely, we have to start with ourself and thence through family, social, national and human, we’ll ALL do the right thing the next time round. And not for our bank or immortality accounts. For The Absolute Truth whilst not forgtting that when a human do not know why or what he exists for, he’ll become greed one moment and then fear the next moment. Just substitute greed with intellect, cruelty, masculinity, protein, oxygen, anger, the potential, ad infinitum and for fear, just substitute with emotions, subtlety, femininity, carbs, hydrogen, guilt, the kinetic, ad infinitum. Got it? The other guy is always the “devil” and ignorance or rationality is NO defence. Just face yourself first and when enough “humans” do that, we’ll start seeing a sea change coming. And this is not about those bastions of nonsense called science or religion.

The truth of a matter do not rely on association with emotion or replacement by intellect. It depends entirely on Intelligence also known as Morality [but not moralising], Love, Joy & Compassion. The biggest trick that immorality/devolution does is to engage people into a cycle of finger-pointing/judging-at-others for once the wheel of “rights & wrongs” starts spinning, it sucks in all who has no stability/foundation. It makes excitements-of-sorts, the reason for existing. Judgement/comparison is for between us and Truth, the state of one’s Evolution, and not for determining the state of the other guy’s state of Devolution whilst not forgetting that Decay is Natural.

...
written by busybee , April 06, 2008

Whoa! I didn't see that coming!

No thanks
written by David V , April 06, 2008

If this is going to be like the flush toilet that I have to flush twice, the shower head that takes twice as long to get you clean, or the auto AC that I have to turn all the way up to get the same effect, it's going to use more energy, not less.

When will people learn that government coercion tends to have a nasty side-effect?

legal force ?
written by PauPer , April 06, 2008

Magnulus:
"Unless I could legally force my land lord to change"

Hey mag., what do you mean by "legal force" ??
would you have guys in suits send the Owner an order, if not followed, guys will come with guns and throw him in a cage? Is your building under mob protection or gov't gunmen? Is there a difference? heres an idea: buy your own building!!!

Davids smart:
"When will people learn that government coercion tends to have a nasty side-effect?"

http://isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

Peace Out,
-PauPer

Switch to Electric????
written by Bob , April 06, 2008

Are you telling me that if I switch my natural gas water heater for an electric one, I'll help save electricity? Retarded. Most water heaters are natural gas. Everyone should NOT switch.

Electricity is one of the most inefficient ways to heat water. Electricity is about 12 cents per kWh here (3,412.14 BTU), and natural gas is billed at $1.18 per therm (100,000 BTU). So electricity costs 3.52 cents per 1,000 BTU and natural gas costs 1.18 cents per 1,000 BTU. Electricity costs twice as much.

Even if you're not concerned with cost, and you are just concerned with global warming, coal fired power plants emit about 2.1 pounds of CO2 for every kWh of electricity they generate (0.62 pounds per 1,000 BTU). Natural gas releases about 0.39 pounds per 1,000 BTU.

VERDICT: Electric water heaters are horrible for the environment and your wallet when natural gas is available.

...
written by peter , April 06, 2008

no, you don't switch to electric if you have gas. and tankless is an established and proven technology. it's 30 years in japan and eu. only USA likes to ignore stuff that works.

So, what else is new?
written by Lupin , April 06, 2008

The heat pump version won't be available until 2009? Where have you been the last 20 years, USA?? We (living in Austria, Europe) have a heat pump installed for nearly 15 years now. And while the really efficient season is only 6 to 7 month, we still managed to cut oil consumption nearly in half (still used for heating during winter).

Now imagine you'd use such a system in regions, where you don't have -15°C winters. You could use it all around the year and would take 80% of the energy needed out of "thin air". The technology is available at least since the beginning of the 90s, if you had wanted to.

Tankless Heaters
written by Matt , April 06, 2008

If you buy a tankless heater and it tells you it makes 7gpm it is usually based on a 40 to 50 degree rise in temperature. Realistically it is much closer to an 80 degree rise in temperature giving you about 3 or 4 gpm. In that situation the water will be warm with just one fixture running but if you were using the shower and another faucet was opened you would get cold water. A decent unit for a 3 or 4 bedroom house is about $1100 wholesale

...
written by voxelman , April 06, 2008

Our 2300 sqft home in Iowa, built in 2003, has a geothermal heat pump that suppliments the hot water heating during both winter and summer. Our average electrical bill (the house is all electric) is $150/month. The geothermal system cost an additional $5000 after rebates.

efficiency at gunpoint
written by Adam , April 06, 2008

Y'know what's dumb...until today, people still thought that having the government regulate all aspects of our lives was a good thing.

Too little too late
written by Joe doe , April 06, 2008

We needed this 30 years ago.

Also water heaters are not so simple as this article make them seem.

For instance a gas or oil powered hot water heater is ALREADY 30% more efficient than an electric. Fossil fuels may run very inefficient in cars, but the are actually perfectly fine for heating water or boilers or hot water heaters.

Likely this articles compares their on demand services to other low efficiency electric water heaters, which are the worst case scenario.

A HUGE problem with on demand is that while you save money per gallon EVERYONE who gets an on demand hot water heat will use more hot water than they did when their supply was limited.

The best way to save on hot water is to take faster shows, take few baths, turn down the temp of the water heater, insulate the water heater and only wash on warm or cold water.

Beyond that, you should go for SOLAR THERMAL hot water heating, not ON DEMAND which leads to people using more hot water since the supply becomes unlimited.

Even further beyond that geo-thermal is a great way to save money, coupled with solar thermal hot water heating you can save a lot on cooling and heater and basically get hot water for free.

Hmmm...pay a bunch to get half price hot water or.... pay a bunch to get solar powered water for free or nearly free during low sun.

Heat storage is not a new idea either and more houses should be using the idea in their basic designs and heating system.

You can heat LARGE tanks of water during the day, and since water holds heat well it's basically natures battery (for heat). The residual heat can warm keep water temps up all night long.

Energy prices are only going up, sunlight will remain free. At this point most US homes can save the MOST money on hot water using solar thermal, not on demand or energy efficient water heaters.


For the truly cheapest high powered solution a wood fired boiler can heat your water and home for many times less than electric or fossil fuels.

However, the future will be bio diesel, so oil fired boilers aren't that bad of an idea.

In the LONG term bio diesel is more renewable than coal, oil, propane or natural gas, which will all run out.

New specialized high yield bio fuels can EASILY provide ALL domestic fuels needs without competing with cropland. Sadly we just didn't plan far enough ahead to make the transition smoothly.

So diesel, diesel fuel cells and straight solar electric and solar thermal are the FUELS OF THE FUTURE. Though, wood is the easiest to get free and works now.

A good wood boilers runs at 89% efficiency, only a little under the best modern oil or gas furnaces.

Waste vegetable oil is a also a valid fuel for those self motivated people.

However in the long run waste oil will have little value as it gets replaces with new biodiesel and biodiesel fuel cells.

SOo, that means free oil for the motivated and cheaper biofuel for the masses.

Like wood today, you can heat your home and hot water for nearly free, just paying the gas to pickup free wood. It takes work and a chainsaw, and most people will simply lose their homes and live on the streets before they are motivated enough to adopt cheaper fuels on their own..

Just look at the tent city peoples. It was their home loan that killed them. It was the TOTAL failure between the feds, the banks AND the home owners to acknowledge rising energy prices.

They sold them huge houses with HUGE and ever growing energy bills. Many times a large houses oil bill can be more than it's mortgage per month.

Fortunately for the overall economy we now have a way to make cheap diesel in quantities enough to supply our nation and then some.

Oil futures are going to plummet in about 5-10 years depending on if we can get federal funding on the RIGHT bio fuels, not cropland biofuels... that are stupid and produce minuscule amount of fuel.

Either way, I personally know that American's with even small lots will be able to produce their own fuel or buy from large biofuel farms in the not too distant future.

One catch... we need diesel cars or electric cars with diesel fuel cells.

However, as I said, oil futures will go down once the biofuel farms go up... the good ones.

Current crops are maybe a couple hundred barrels of oil per acre. New methods, will cost much more to stup, but are cheap to run and produce tens of thousands of barrels or more per acre.

20 Year Old Technology in a new light.
written by SteepCreek , April 06, 2008

This heat recovery "Hybrid" system has existed since before I was in college in 1988. There were installations of Geothermal Heat Pumps with a Hot water heat exchanger over 20 years ago. Do the research. Sad that it has taken this long to catch on.

You misunderstand thermal efficiency
written by colinnwn , April 06, 2008

@Jason Stone

Thermal efficiency only tells you how efficiently you convert the gas/electricity to hot water while in operation. It doesn't take into account standby losses which the AO Smith will still have, but an instantaneous won't.

Gas heater thermal efficiency has room to improve, electricity should always be in the 98% range, but you also have to take into account the thermal efficiency of the power plant where the electricity is created, and the transmission efficiency of the power lines. That will significantly reduce the effective thermal efficiency of any electric water heater (standby or instantaneous).

...
written by Brandon Halbert , April 06, 2008

tankless water heaters have been around for almost ten years. mostly for people who have lots of money to spend on that kind of stuff, though it was generally available for more commercial needs. they work really really well and do save a lot of energy. but to say that this is the first is completely wrong, it isnt they have been around, they just have costed around 10,000 bucks to save 10,000 bucks in about 20 years. but now that they will be more mass produced i can see prices, obviously, dropping a lot, probably down to prices comparable to tanked water heaters.

...
written by doug , April 06, 2008

(1) I recall seeing a tankless gas-fired water heater a couple decades ago in a country house in Mexico. If a middle-class mexican summer house had one twenty years ago, they can't be anything special.
(2) At my old job, I used to steam-clean trucks/engines/etc. Inside the pressure washer i used, was a pipe that was coiled a couple dozen times over top a flame-shooting burner. Instant boiling water when the switch was flipped.
(3) Therefore, since tankless hot water is old technology, I'm wondering why we have we used tanks all these years? I'm sure there must be some good reason....?

...
written by David Greiman , April 06, 2008

Congrats GE. With Jack Welsh gone, maybe we'll see more innovations.

solar is usually better
written by xoc , April 06, 2008

Any form of electrically heated hot water is terribly wasteful. Heat exchanger based systems are ok, but gas is still better, and solar-thermal is better still.

Solar hot water makes so much sense that unless you live somewhere extremely cold and cloudy for most of the year, it should be a crime against the environment to not use it. If necessary, supplement with gas powered on-demand systems, but for most people on Earth it wont be necessary.

New? You're kidding....
written by Michael , April 06, 2008

For folks like me living outside the USA, it's really quite scary to watch such pronouncements, from the country that uses about three quarters of the worlds resources,of 'new' ways to heat water that we've been using for as long as I can remember (I'm not young, so that's quite a while). Things like 'hot water on demand' heaters have been normal here for decades and 'heat pump' heaters for not quite as long.
Long ago people here have been moving to solar as well as various other 'passive' ways to save hot water. And the thought that until now there has been no regulations to do with efficiency - sheesh!
I guess if you live in a country where you use resources like there's no tomorrow without thought of the consequence, both short and long term, then announcements such as these ones from GE must look exciting. But to the rest of us they look old hat and bordering on irresponsible.

BTW
written by Michael , April 06, 2008

After my last somewhat caustic comments I should say to Hank - anyone who spends time exploring/documenting environmental issues to help us get out of the mess we've gotten ourselves into, deserves a vote of thanks.
So thanks Hank.

GE Late to the Party?
written by hrez , April 06, 2008

Both tankless and heat pump water heaters have been available for some time in the US, GE seems to be playing catch-up. The only news here seems to be that water heaters are coming under government jurisdiction.

Ecogeek doesn't seem very well informed about energy-efficient appliances.

Simpler and cheaper solutions
written by Oren , April 07, 2008

Remember that the real goal is not to heat water. The goal is to have a shower that feels good.

Check out this energy efficient shower:

http://www.appropedia.org/Sun_Frost_energy_efficient_shower

Heat loss is minimized so that less water at lower temperature still feels comfortable. Cheaper. Simpler. No fancy (and expensive) heater with heat pumps and heat exchangers.

Gas
written by QDM , April 07, 2008

For those so interested in natural gas over coal. The majority of the world's natural gas is in Iran and Russia. We may not want to depend too heavily on natural gas.

The US has more coal than any other country, and we are the veritable Saudia Arabia of coal.

And yet, it is still built wrong
written by grr , April 10, 2008

I find it funny that I was suggesting a similar design to my father over a decade ago, and he told me that it would not be worth it. What they are missing is that with a bit of a CPU and intelligence, they could monitor the household and increase the holding tank temp AHEAD of the expected use. So, if it detects that family is getting up at 6, it might raise the temp from 65 (temp in the basement), to 90. Then from there, for the next hour or so, it keeps it up higher. Once the demand has gone down, it simply allows the heat to go away. This lowers the total demand, or allows for more ppl to take showers before going cold.

Hybrid water heater available since 2006
written by bw , April 16, 2008

Grand hall sells the hybrid water heater now. So no need to wait until late 2009 for GE.

$2499 for a 3.6-7.4 gallon per minute unit (retail price, wholesale plumber installation price varies)
$2799 for a 4.7-9.5 gallon per minute unit

...
written by Mike B , April 26, 2008

There is a problem with the tankless units, though it crops up more if many of them are installed in the same area. While it saves energy overall, the biggest issue is that they use a lot of power in a short amount of time. Since a lot of people tend to take showers or use hot water at the same time (early morning before work/school after dinner for dishes, etc), then the power company can see huge spikes in peak consumption which require delicate loading and even distribution.

Not an issue as a few homes convert, but if a new development goes up and all the homes have this installed, then it could create some issues.

Is Ecogeek sponsored by GE?
written by stacey , May 30, 2008

To sing the praises of an electric water heater is crazy unless you don't have natural gas as an option. Electric heating water isn't efficient nor the most eco-friendly option. This story was obviously generated by a GE press release.

Hybrid would be more efficient than pure
written by Russ , July 17, 2008

The GE is a combination of heat pump and resistence heating. The heat pump uses electricity but it uses it to move the heat from the air to the water. Moving heat is much more efficient than creating heat with electricity. The GE is a hybrid because it also has an electric resistence element for heating. The more you use this heating element, the less efficient it would be, but I think the intention of the heating element is to merely supplement the heat pump. This unit will be best for warm climates as it will output cool, dehumidified air from the heat pump.