JUN 16

Hi, I have a quick question on this. I've been told that the battery in the Prius and others only have a life of 3 years than need replacing which will cost quite a bit of money. Is this factored in to the break even figures?

The other factor to consider is that hybrids are much better at reducing CO2 and other pollutants. If we had a mechanism for putting a dollar value on pollution reduction the payback would be much shorter.

The 3-year battery life may have been true but isn't now. In any case, Toyota has an 8-year warranty on the hybrid system.

@Rob
I don't know where you got that 3-year number, (maybe The Heartland Institute? ), but what I've read from numerous sources, is that the batteries are generally comfortably outlasting their warranties.

I did an analysis on GM's mild hybrids and even though they don't give big bumps in mileage, the higher price tag is about the same magnitude as the tax credit. So you would actually get the extra mileage for free.

I'm not sure where they got the $5000 Hybrid premium for a Saturn Aura - that would imply that a basic aura starts at $18Gs. I've never seen one that cheap.

I also don't see how the Yukon and Tahoe hybrids have a 2X difference in hybrid premiums when they're pretty much the same vehicle.

These numbers don't add up.

I bought a 2008 Highlander Hybrid Limited in February. I've been averaging 28 city and 30.5 highway. We have friends who bought the non-hybrid Limited - they average 22 MPG overall. Given the price difference between the Limited hybrid and non-hybrid ($7500), pay back is around 11 to 12 years, not 18.

They might be including some interest on the difference when factoring in the payback time. If they aren't, they should be. Paying $1200 extra now is not the same as paying $400/year over three years. It's more akin to paying $400/year over 3.5 years when you factor in the interest you are either paying on the loan or could have received if you had invested the money or put it in the bank.

I know before I never would of considered a hybrid, now everyone I talk to is looking at getting a hybrid as they really make sense now. The car industry is really going to change the next few years.

This only assumes the price of gas though stays the same right? Those charts and the numbers are certainly going to be better as the price of gas goes up to $5 and $6.

For that reason alone I think the whole conversation about how many years till it pays off is fairly silly.....

Here's an article from last week about battery replacement... Toyota's track record for replacement is 0.003% failure.

The Camry hybrid I bought had similar features to the 6cyl version (hybrid components and engine were only major difference). Are you comparing the 4 or 6 cyl version?

Also around Chicago my car gets 39 in the summer, 33 in the winter.

You guys need to checkout Google's Recharge IT initiative. You can see how the cars in their test fleet perform. They have stats and everything which track the performance of these cars.

http://www.google.org/recharge/

In Australia we're paying $US6.01 per gallon on a good day.

It goes up and down in weekly cycles so when the price does rise we don't notice it as much.

There was a huge out cry when our fuel prices rose to the amount it is over in the US. The government said a lot of things. An fuel prices dropped for a few months but then crept up again and haven't gone down again since.

The affect it has on the car industry here is obvious though. Small car prices seem to stay the same even though they depreciate in value, large car sales have plummeted much like they are now in the US. Car manufacturing plants here are looking at closing up costing jobs. Australia primarily produces large cars with 6 or 8 cylinder engines and they aren't selling anymore.

I sold my car and got a scooter. I went from spending $50 a week on petrol to $3.

Best saving I've ever made to my pocket and the environment.

I'm kinda glad out government doesn't give us extra cash to spend on fuel...?!?!

Seeing as how the Prius has a life expectancy of 10-12 years (http://john1701a.com/prius/pri...ptions.htm), that premium of $3,708 and annual savings of $1,073 gives an internal rate of return of 26.08%, more than beating the stock market. (N=10, PV=3708, PMT=-1073, FV=0, CPT I/Y)

Put in other words, discounted at the rate of my car's loan, the choice to run a hybrid, in the case of the Prius, I effectively gained $3,845.75 in free money for choosing a hybrid. (6.74% APR, paid monthly = 6.95% effective annual rate, 6.95=I/Y, PMT=-1073, FV=0, N=10, CPT PV gives $7553.75, less the premium of $370

The featured photo shows a 54.3 MPG Average over 59Miles. The graphs show 30minutes worth of driving. Was the driver going 120MPH or does the graph only show the last 30 minutes of your drive?
I have not ridden in a Prius and hence my question. If the answer is the latter is there a way to make the graph show you a greater duration than only the last 30 minutes?

The graph only shows a trailing average for the past thirty minutes. The figure at the bottom is since the last time that the counter was reset (seems to do so automatically upon refueling on mine). I personally don't know of any way of changing the graph.

As the owner of several bikes and a car, I have to say that I think that bike owners consistently understate the cost of their bikes and of riding them. The cost of must-replace-every-X-miles parts (chain, cassette, tires, etc) is non-zero, food cost is definitely non-zero (especially when you consider how bad food is for the environment compared to gasoline, calorie for calorie, one calorie of food takes 10 calories of gasoline). That being said, bikes are really efficient, and so the costs (last time I calculated it) was about $0.40 ($.20 /mi for gas alone in avg. car, plus oil changes, brakes, wear & tear, etc.) per mile for cars, and $.20 for bikes (that's tires, chains, casettes, and $1 for 250 calories spent at 500calories per hour at 20 mi/hr).

That said, I love my bike, and I'd rather ride anyday, and if you count the health benefits and life benefits of riding, you're way better off biking. Pedal!

Some nice information but there's a lot of factors.
Obviously how much you drive affects things. If you're financing, you'll be paying interest on the premium for several years, and for those with bad credit, that could be 20% a year. The future price of gasoline will obviously affect things, but I'm guessing it's not going to get any cheaper any time soon. This information is making the assumption that you'll drive the same amount in either car, which may not be true. I'm guessing that once people feel they have a "cheaper" car, they may use it more, feeling good they're saving money when they're actually spending it (kind of like using coupons to "save money" on things you wouldn't normally buy). Toyota also requires you to run the car at least half an hour every two weeks or run the risk of voiding the warranty. This may impact your decision. Also, this assumes you are GOING to buy a new car -- the economics are very different if you currently have a perfectly suitable car. And all new cars depriciate a lot in the first few years, so a four or five year old used car is almost certainly a better deal financially. Also, I keep hearing from hybrid touters that the batteries last for years and years, but from what I know of NiMH batteries, they typically operate at reduced capacity over time and many charge cycles. I don't know how much this would affect mileage and whatnot over time, perhaps very little. I'm guessing it depends somewhat on your driving habits. I'm sure the car makers have worked hard to have the cars treat the batteries well, but it's something I'd research further before investing in a hybrid. Temperature extremes will affect battery life as well, so I'd be especially careful to research further if I lived in Phoenix or North Daktota, etc.

I'm not saying the article is misleading or anything like that, and I'm not suggesting hybrid cars are bad. I'm just saying that everybody's situation is different and one should really do a lot of research before investing so much money. :-) For instance, I bought a used 1997 honda civic in 2002 that gets fairly good gas mileage, and I've only put 35,000 miles on it, so it'd be insane for me to buy a hybrid right now. :-)

And a minor tangent -- I'm curious how well a more traditional gasoline car with some sort of energy reclaiming brake system would do. That's where a lot of the savings in hybrid cars is from. I'm sure the car makers have looked at it, but I love seeing the numbers myself.

I bought my car several years ago, 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid, in California. At the time, not anymore, they allow Hybrids to get a sticker that allows me to travel on our carpool lanes (expires 2011) alone. This benefits my car's gas consumption because I'm not stuck in traffic idling my gas away. Plus I can get home sooner than later. Also in certain cities, I live near City of Los Angeles, we get an added benefit of parking for free in the metered parking, which can save me a bucket load of money for parking when I need to go there. All in all, I feel lucky that I purchased my car when I did plus I feel good about being a little more green. But I don't think I get that MPG I average more along 38-41. Regardless it is starting to pay off now.

I dont know where you heard that story about Toyota requiring you to run the car for half an hour or voiding the warranty- complete rubbish.

The batteries used in hybrids dont fully discharge- this extends there life, unlike in regular NiMH batteries that you might recharge yourself (ie in a flashlight). Unfortunately this means bigger, heavier batteries than what you should need- but again, if they only lasted a year or two- no one would buy them.

As for regenerative braking- it produces electricity- which on a regular gas engine would be useless, its only with a 2nd motor- an electric one- that the reclaimed energy is used. Thats what makes it a 'hybrid'.

There are companies looking into having the brakes pump fluid and then using that built up pressure to then propel the car from a stop, supposedly these systems would be much simpler,cheaper and regain a larger % of energy back-but.... hydraulics can be finicky, not as reliable as electric motors, and as of yet no system has been brought to market (atleast that im aware of).

like the aussies, we in canada are paying nearly $6/gal for gas. although, we pay per litre (about $1.47).
i'm somewhat surprised to not see less cars (trucks, suvs, etc) on the road. i bike, walk, and take transit most places. partly because i don't own a car.
now, are hybrids the answer? tough to say but they're certainly a decent choice, especially for city driving.

http://thefoodmonsterblog.blog...n-gas.html
Has a Green Gas Station in Los Angeles. I saw a Prius filling up there. Wish I could afford a hybrid even if it only broke even in 10 years.

As gas price tag is going higher and higher, Hybrids car would certainly a better option.

In Europe is gas price twice as high as in US. Just imagine how your life will change when gas price will reach EUs.

I BOUGHT A NEW HIGHLANDER HYBRID IN MARCH AND PAID $34,200. MY PAYBACK IS BETTER THAN THE ARTICLE STATES. I ALSO AM CONTRIBUTING LESS CARBON AND THAT HAS TO HAVE A PRICE TAG. MILEAGE HAS BEEN 32 HIGHWAY/25 CITY BUT THAT IS BECAUSE I TRAVEL A LITTLE OVER THE POSTED SPEED-NOT 10-15 MPH OVER THE SPEED LIMIT LIKE MOST. WHERE I REALLY NOTICED THE SAVINGS IS BEING LIGHT ON THE FOOT WHEN ACCELERATING. I STILL MEET ALL OF THE RACING CARS AT THE NEXT STOP LIGHT. I SAVED GAS WHILE THEY JUST BOUGHT MORE IN THERE HASTE TO BE THE FIRST AT THE LIGHT!

No doubt about it, at $4 ANYTHING less is worth looking at. I mean really.

JT
www.an0n.mirrorz.com

I actually have driven a Prius since 2004, but I think a better comparison would be to include the new efficient diesels produced by Volkswagen.

A pretty nice comparison there but i guess there are other factors not included.

How about a motorcycle?
A Kawasaki ninja 250 is around $3500 gets 70mpg, and is quicker and more fun than any of those cars.

I own a 2001 Prius, I can get around 50 MPG with out the AC running. I just had my hybrid battery back fail at 93,000 miles. It was about $3,000 including labor to get it repaired (luckily the '01 had a 100,000 mile warranty on the hybrid system). I can say first hand the biggest cost to a hybrid car is the maintenance and repair; it tends to be double my other vehicle

Not sure if anyone mentioned it but the Prius no longer gets the full rebate as toyota has sold more than 60,000 of them. Same for the lexus hybrids as well if I recall

If you compare buying a Prius to buying a standard Civic the payback is going to be a lot longer that 3 to 4 years. Using the average mileage that I drive per year and using 35 mpg(which is a low combined average) for the Civic and 40 to 45 mpg, which is a high average for Prius owners, and considering you can't touch a Prius for less than $26K where I live and you can get a Civic for $20K or less, at $3.979 per gallon after 3 years of driving I would still be $4200 ahead if I bought the Civic. This would put the payback at roughly 7 years and over 100,000 miles which means the battery replacement would be on you. Definitely do the math if you are considering buying a new car. Compare the hybrids with other cars and if overall expense is a main concern for the next 4 years you just might be better off without the hybrid.

I've got a news flash for all of the naive people putting comments into every thread related to bikes AND NOT:

Bicycle riding is not an option for everyone. Some people have physical infirmities. Other people can't show up to work sweaty. Some people need to haul things. Some people need to go places that are too far to drive and they can't move closer.

Yes, by all means use a bike when you can, but STFU already about ramming it as a universal option down people's throats

Thanks for the lovely troll, Steve2. I think you may have wandered into the wrong article. Perhaps even the wrong blog.

@nister,

I thought Steve2 made a decent point. Bikes are heavily promoted here, and are not practical for most of us.

nicster I believe that you are the troll here, the bicycle is not an option for me, I may only live 3 miles from work, but 98 degree temperatures, and constant threat of rain, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to use a bicycle. I have to carry a laptop to and from work each day, it cannot get wet, plus all the shock of hitting bumps and vibration. then there is the fact that I would smell very bad after riding to work most days. Then there are the days when I need to help maintain a friends office network 20 miles away, riding a bicycle would make that impossible. Think about it, not everybody lives in a large city with functional mass transit and nice weather.

Other people can't show up to work sweaty. Some people need to haul things. Some people need to go places that are too far to drive and they can't move closer

Not coming to work sweaty is a HUGE issue. I would guess a large portion of office workers could never use a bike based on this one fact. Some people will never understand this point because they think being green is just as important as earning a living.

On a side note, a few of my coworkers also have early civic hybrids and battery replacement at 100,000 is a guaranteed cost. Some were able to negotiate a free replacement and others talked down the price. As more people buy hybrids there will be no way to waive or lower the $3000 replacement cost. So, just go ahead and tack on another $3000 to the MSRP.

hybrids will destroy our enviroment when the batteries need to be disposed of...

Two additional misses in the article when comparing hybrids to "normal" cars: Trade in costs when you already drive a newer vehicle and resale value of the hybrid after 5-6 years. How much do you think a 5 year old hybrid will be compared to my 5 year old gas civic? The hybrid civic was about 5 grand more but after 5 years will be at least that much less.

I bought a Prius in May of 2007 and it came with a 15 year warranty on the battery. The 3 year figure is incorrect.

Try looking at Aptera for real payback. You can pre-order them now. 300 MPG.

http://www.aptera.com

I bought a Prius in May of 2007 and it came with a 15 year warranty on the battery. The 3 year figure is incorrect.

I said CIVIC HYBRID. It is possible that Toyota has a bette policy on battery replacement/service than some of the other brands, but please note the article make reference to 9 brands and 14 hybrid models. The policy for battery replacement/service WILL NOT be the same for all of them. Also, as I said earlier just becuase repairs are not so bad today does not guarantee down the road that they will remain the same. I'll certainly be able to estimate future repair cost on a standard Civic or Camry than any with a hybrid can.

I'd be interested in getting a hybrid, but my sister has one and it doesn't have any power at all. I hope they fix this soon because gas prices are outrageous.

Nate
Trade Show Handbook

Finally, due to high gas prices, people actually started to think about alternative ways of energy. Like water. I already converted my car to run on water, and it works great actually. Saving a lot of money on gas

Paul, I actually have heard about this thing too. Not only heard, but I also converted my car to run on water. I did this by following this guide : convertcartorunonwater.info

do something now - gas for $.90 less per gallon
or more after the cost of the product, tested
and used worldwide over last 10 years.
use it in my dodge caravan and went from 23mpg
to 27mpg,money back gaurantee ------
www.forearthonline.com/talkwithtom

Find out with this calculator

www.whentogogreen.net

At the end of the life cycle of these batteries, how do we deal with them? We have the same problems for almost all chargeable batteries for our electronic gizmos and the same for lead-acid batteries we use for conventional cars. We may save our planet in reducing our carbon footprint with these hybrids, but in the end we still create another pollution to deal with and that is in how to safely dispose of these hazardous environmental unfriendly batteries...

THE OTHER HYBRID
I drove a 2007 Mercury Marquis that ran for about $2.00 a gallon. I'm converting my car into a Gasoline/Natural gas hybrid.
It's clean, cheap to convert, and drives for about $2.00 a gallon.
30 year old technology that needs no development, it works NOW 130,000 vehicle use it now in the USA
Natural Gas vehicles. Ultra low emissions vehicle, is ready to move from fleet use to public use. watch this video

:- you need to figure out how much money the government makes on a gallon of gas

I just saw gas at $1.43/gallon, however, I think we need to continue to push the hybrid issue because EVERYONE can use more money in their pocket and conserving resources should be important to everyone.