I see this question in my inbox or in comments several times per week. The asker generally proposes one of several possibilities. These range oil-company assassinations to esoteric problems with the car's transmissions.
Fortunately for everyone, it's neither as exciting as assassination or as mundane as fundamental mechanical flaws. It's a collection of problems, actually, that are slowly being overcome.
And though we can't do it today, five years down the road, the future of electric cars will look a lot brighter.
So here's a collection of problems and their upcomming solutions:
Problem #1: Car manufacturers have put many billions of dollars and almost a hundred years into the development of the internal combustion engine, and they don't want to (or can't even imagine how to) abandon that investment for new technology.
Solution: It only took a global crisis, a quadrupling of gas prices and the majority of consumers shifting to efficient cars to convince them that maybe gasoline wasn't the best idea. Now even the biggest, oldest and stodgiest of the car manufacturers are investigating electric cars.
Problem #2: Batteries do not store power as efficiently as fossil fuels. They are heavy, bulky and provide far less power per unit of weight than gasoline, ethanol or hydrogen.
Solution: The EV1 overcame this by being a truly tiny car, and having a fairly low top speed. But still it could only travel less than 100 miles on a charge. Now cars are being updated with Lithium Ion batteries which can carry far more power per pound (though still not as much as gasoline.)
And range-extended EVs like the Chevy Volt allow the battery to remain small, while the on-board ICE can recharge the batteries when they get low. And, even more fascinating, an ultra-stealth company called EEStor says they have a new ultracapacitor technology that could store far more energy than batteries, and charge in just a few minutes
Problem #3: Filling a gas tank takes five minutes, charging a battery can take as long as 12 hours.
Solution: I'll start with EEStor again, who says that their ultracapacitors can charge in minutes but still power a car for over 300 miles. Pheonix Motorcars has a nanotech based Li-ion battery that can also be charged in a matter of minutes. Unfortunately, both of these technologies require extremely high voltage, so the cars could not be charged quickly at home.
Extra infrastructure in the form of charging stations would be necessary to allow these batteries to charge quickly.
Other solutions to the long-charge-time include Project Better Place's plan to have battery swapping stations (instead of gas stations.) The idea being that PBP owns the batteries, and chargest them at stations. A car-wash-like facility swaps out a freshly charged battery for your used one. This, as well requires a ton of new infrastructure though.
The Chevy Volt, finally, takes a middle road, and basically lets you charge the battery with gasoline when you really need it. So you can charge at home with electricity over long periods, but if you need a boost NOW the gasoline option is always available.
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Without overcoming those obstacles, there would indeed never be a cheap, convenient, mass-market electric car. But the good news is, we're on the verge of overcoming (or, in some cases, have already overcome) the limitations of previous eelectric cars.
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written by Jason Schonacher, July 29, 2008
Slight point of clarification if I may. EEStor is an American Company based in Texas. However, ZENN Motor Company is a Canadian car company that has invested in EEStor, and gained exclusive rights to use EEStor ultracapacitors in cars. As a side-note, Lockheed Martin has exclusive rights to EEStor ultracapacitors in military and homeland security applications. Now if only they could start producing it commercially.
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written by Anessa, July 29, 2008
Hey Hank! It is so funny that I just came here and found this. I found out today that I have to buy a new car, and I want to get something economical. I thought I would search around a bunch of sites, but then I remembered my Nerdfigher ties and Ecogeek. I knew you'd be just the man to answer my question.
If you absolutely had to buy a car what would be your top five choices for the most economy friendly car (without breaking the bank). I tried to find this on your site, but couldn't, so I thought I'd try to ask you directly.
I hope you get this and can give me your opinion.
thanks so much!
Anessa (Hooha Eco-Nerdfighters!)
If you absolutely had to buy a car what would be your top five choices for the most economy friendly car (without breaking the bank). I tried to find this on your site, but couldn't, so I thought I'd try to ask you directly.
I hope you get this and can give me your opinion.
thanks so much!
Anessa (Hooha Eco-Nerdfighters!)
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written by Edmund Velasco, July 29, 2008
Today, an independent study concluded that EESTOR's methods of production were sound and that they are capable of producing the materials necessary to produce the ultracapacitors that they have promised. It should be an exciting next six months.
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written by Mary, July 29, 2008
This may be a dumb question...I am interested in having the true scoop environmentally on using an EV vs. fossil fuel - in other words - how much fossil fuel or coal is used in order to manufacture the batteries and then charge them? How much electricity is that equivalent to? Not so much, of course I'd imagine. Thanks!
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written by Alex, July 29, 2008
not to be pedantic, but it's the power, not the voltage, that makes home charging slow. High voltage you can always get with a transformer, but charging a Tesla's 50kWh battery (which only goes 200 miles) in 3 minutes, even if you could do it, would take 1 megawatt! Not many home circuits could handle that...
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written by J, July 29, 2008
Alex,
I agree the "charge in 5 minutes" is silly, but there is some possibility for it. EEStor obviously wants to sell as many of these ultracaps as possible, so they are thinking of selling ultracap units you can keep in your garage and charge whenever, then dump it all into your car in ~5 minutes (That's going to be a beefy cable to connect that!).
They've also talked about having electric "filling stations" that would have large banks of ultracaps, but I personally don't see a big market for that since driving 250 miles at a go is not that common. It might make sense to have a couple along heavily traveled long distance corridors, but even that seems like a stretch to me.
I agree the "charge in 5 minutes" is silly, but there is some possibility for it. EEStor obviously wants to sell as many of these ultracaps as possible, so they are thinking of selling ultracap units you can keep in your garage and charge whenever, then dump it all into your car in ~5 minutes (That's going to be a beefy cable to connect that!).
They've also talked about having electric "filling stations" that would have large banks of ultracaps, but I personally don't see a big market for that since driving 250 miles at a go is not that common. It might make sense to have a couple along heavily traveled long distance corridors, but even that seems like a stretch to me.
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written by IamIan, July 29, 2008
Agree with Alex it is the amount of power that becomes an issue... Related... fast charging in Minutes is not new... The NiMH Batteries in the 8 Year old Honda Insight charge at ~7.7C rates, this would mean a charge in under 8 minutes... from 8 year old NiMH technology... still have the problem with power per minute and power per pound though.
Realistically the need to refuel in such a short time is 95% fantasy... 95% of people think they need it but only about 5% really do.
As for point #2... batteries are actually much more efficient at storing energy... most types of batteries are 80 % charge to discharge cycle efficient... plants are not even 40% efficient in converting energy and only a small % of what they do convert ends up being converted to oil... and even smaller % ends up as Gasoline... horribly not efficient... PV to Battery is more energy efficient than fossil fuels are.... although you are correct on the other #2 point about energy density, but that is not energy efficiency.
As for Mary... not a dumb question... just not a simple one... an overly simple answer is the straight gasoline car has to get over ~120MPG to reach the EV... for more accuracy you would have to be a bit more specific... if you want an exact / specific answer... what type of vehicle is being used for the fossil fuel vs the EV... how far per charge... how fast acceleration 0 to 60.... how fast average cruising speed... what factors are being included or excluded ... different parts of the country have different electricity costs in money and the environment ... there are different ways to make batteries so which methods are being used for which batteries... there are many different fossil fuels ... etc...etc... depending on the answers to those and other details will lead well educated and informed people to have different answers.
Realistically the need to refuel in such a short time is 95% fantasy... 95% of people think they need it but only about 5% really do.
As for point #2... batteries are actually much more efficient at storing energy... most types of batteries are 80 % charge to discharge cycle efficient... plants are not even 40% efficient in converting energy and only a small % of what they do convert ends up being converted to oil... and even smaller % ends up as Gasoline... horribly not efficient... PV to Battery is more energy efficient than fossil fuels are.... although you are correct on the other #2 point about energy density, but that is not energy efficiency.
As for Mary... not a dumb question... just not a simple one... an overly simple answer is the straight gasoline car has to get over ~120MPG to reach the EV... for more accuracy you would have to be a bit more specific... if you want an exact / specific answer... what type of vehicle is being used for the fossil fuel vs the EV... how far per charge... how fast acceleration 0 to 60.... how fast average cruising speed... what factors are being included or excluded ... different parts of the country have different electricity costs in money and the environment ... there are different ways to make batteries so which methods are being used for which batteries... there are many different fossil fuels ... etc...etc... depending on the answers to those and other details will lead well educated and informed people to have different answers.
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written by Doug, July 29, 2008
The EV1 had a 60-mi range, not 200.
I think EV2 was to have 120-mi range (though of course it was killed)?
Oh, and on EEStor:
> Now if only they could start producing it commercially.
How about producing and demonstrating single functional device?
> Today, an independent study concluded that EESTOR's
> methods of production were sound and that they are
> capable of producing the materials necessary to
> produce the ultracapacitors that they have promised.
> It should be an exciting next six months.
I thought I heard that a year ago?
I think EV2 was to have 120-mi range (though of course it was killed)?
Oh, and on EEStor:
> Now if only they could start producing it commercially.
How about producing and demonstrating single functional device?
> Today, an independent study concluded that EESTOR's
> methods of production were sound and that they are
> capable of producing the materials necessary to
> produce the ultracapacitors that they have promised.
> It should be an exciting next six months.
I thought I heard that a year ago?
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written by EV, July 30, 2008
Suggestion: Buy a used car and keep it for a few years. Save up the money to buy one of the new electrics that are coming out in a few years. This is what I have been telling everyone I know who might be purchasing another car soon. Since they are at the point they normally buy new cars, most have not thought of this option.
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written by jared, July 30, 2008
Anessa, I agree with the 'buy a used car' idea. It just so happens that I have a used Ford Expedition I'd be happy to sell you. It will make you feel great once the electric car comes along.
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written by Tom Saxton, July 30, 2008
The second generation EV1 with NMiH batteries had a range of 75 to 150 miles, with reports from drivers easily going over 100 miles on a charge.
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written by Tom, July 30, 2008
-> Mary
>.../... how much fossil fuel or coal is used in order
> to manufacture the batteries and then charge them?
;D Well... far less than building off-shore drilling platforms thousands miles of pipelines super tankers oil refineries growing armys to fight for it...
>.../... how much fossil fuel or coal is used in order
> to manufacture the batteries and then charge them?
;D Well... far less than building off-shore drilling platforms thousands miles of pipelines super tankers oil refineries growing armys to fight for it...
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written by Virgil, July 30, 2008
You CAN buy an EV today, it's called a NEV (neighborhood electric vehicle), and the good ones (e.g. ZENN cars) are crash tested, and will go 35mph when "hacked" using methods freely available on the web. However, they can't go on the highway because they don't meet high-speed crash test criteria.
The #1 issue here is the federal crash testing standards. Because of the recent fad for SUVs, we've backed ourselves into a hole, such that now every new car has to tested for a head-on-impact with a hummer.
It took 10 years to get the smart car into the US, and the US version is significantly heavier because of all the extra baggage for crash standards. It almost crippled Tesla, to have to crash test their roadster from scratch.
The simplest, fastest route, is for one of the big auto makers to take an existing model, which is already crash tested, rip out the ICE and replace it with an electric motor and batteries.
In the longer term, a relaxing of federal crash standards to be more in line with the EU, will allow more small cars to put on the roads. After all, weren't airbags invented because people didn't wear seatbelts? I remember in Alabama when they passed a seatbelt law in the late '90s - the usage rate went from something like 48% to 52% the following year! Americans don't like being told what to do (wear a seatbelt), but seem quite happy to pay tons and tons of extra cash to deal with the consequences of this so-called "freedom" (i.e. be held to ransom driving big gas-guzzling cars).
Fix the Fed crash standards, and small light cheap electric cars will follow. Do nothing, and it'll be at least 15 years. 5 years given the current system is just a pipe dream.
The #1 issue here is the federal crash testing standards. Because of the recent fad for SUVs, we've backed ourselves into a hole, such that now every new car has to tested for a head-on-impact with a hummer.
It took 10 years to get the smart car into the US, and the US version is significantly heavier because of all the extra baggage for crash standards. It almost crippled Tesla, to have to crash test their roadster from scratch.
The simplest, fastest route, is for one of the big auto makers to take an existing model, which is already crash tested, rip out the ICE and replace it with an electric motor and batteries.
In the longer term, a relaxing of federal crash standards to be more in line with the EU, will allow more small cars to put on the roads. After all, weren't airbags invented because people didn't wear seatbelts? I remember in Alabama when they passed a seatbelt law in the late '90s - the usage rate went from something like 48% to 52% the following year! Americans don't like being told what to do (wear a seatbelt), but seem quite happy to pay tons and tons of extra cash to deal with the consequences of this so-called "freedom" (i.e. be held to ransom driving big gas-guzzling cars).
Fix the Fed crash standards, and small light cheap electric cars will follow. Do nothing, and it'll be at least 15 years. 5 years given the current system is just a pipe dream.
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written by Scatter, July 30, 2008
I'd argue that there's been another barrier to EVs: hydrogen. The car manufacturers have sunk so much cash into fuel cell research that if they suddenly dropped it (and I wouldn't be surprised if that happened in the next couple of years in the majority of cases), their shareholders might have a thing or two to say about the last decade of wasted effort and $!
Just think where we would be now if that money had been sunk into battery research instead...?
Just think where we would be now if that money had been sunk into battery research instead...?
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written by Matt, July 30, 2008
After all, weren't airbags invented because people didn't wear seatbelts?
No it wasn't. If you don't wear your seatbelt the airbag will blow up in your face like a grenade, possibly killing you if the crash didn't already.
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written by dan, July 30, 2008
the point that mary was edging towards is a really massive one - how much energy does it take to make something? If i bought this thing, how much energy would i save? If the saving is less than the enrgy required to make it - whats the point?
This is a key concept and should be driving our decisions in using alternative energy - building wind farms, buying EVs, installing solar panels. The problem is, the only reliable sources might be the manufacturers, the shipping companies, raw material suppliers. none of whom have any incentive to research and publish the information.
so, question: "how much fossil fuel or coal is used in order to manufacture the batteries and then charge them?"
answer: no idea. its the subject of a great phd tho!
This is a key concept and should be driving our decisions in using alternative energy - building wind farms, buying EVs, installing solar panels. The problem is, the only reliable sources might be the manufacturers, the shipping companies, raw material suppliers. none of whom have any incentive to research and publish the information.
so, question: "how much fossil fuel or coal is used in order to manufacture the batteries and then charge them?"
answer: no idea. its the subject of a great phd tho!
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written by Apeweek, July 30, 2008
There are indeed cheap electric cars. I drive a used EV bought from eBay for just $2000.
The Zap Xebra is under $12,000, and most EV conversions are in that price range too.
http://www.squidoo.com/cheap-electric-car
The Zap Xebra is under $12,000, and most EV conversions are in that price range too.
http://www.squidoo.com/cheap-electric-car
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written by Myuutsu, July 30, 2008
I like the idea of battery-swap stations, but I think that maybe public batter charging stations would be more effective. For example, in The Watchmen, because all cars are electronic, they put power terminals around the city so that delivery trucks and others can fill their batteries.
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written by David Ahlport, July 30, 2008
For ALL CARS, except luxury cars, they are producing cars at-a-loss, below 60,000 units of production. They are losing profit before they hit that mark.
Cars are an extreme economies of scale market.
As are batteries.
http://greyfalcon.net/batterychart.png
_
So the real answer is that regardless of what you do, they aren't going to be "cheap" until we reach an economies of scale large enough.
Has absolutely nothing to do with the technology.
Cars are an extreme economies of scale market.
As are batteries.
http://greyfalcon.net/batterychart.png
_
So the real answer is that regardless of what you do, they aren't going to be "cheap" until we reach an economies of scale large enough.
Has absolutely nothing to do with the technology.
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written by Range Extended, July 30, 2008
Let's not forget that the ICE and fossil fuels have been great. You can get a lot of power and a lot of range out of them. These are things that are still being worked out with EVs. Your points about energy storage of batteries vs liquid fuels are very true. There will ultimately be a minimum bar that people will accept with electric vehicles and we are very close to it. We're getting good range (albeit not great). Prices are coming down (profitability is a bit uncertain however). So I think the future for the EV looks good, but frankly so does the ICE. They work. And they're great. That's hard to ignore.
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written by al, July 30, 2008
I think the charge time, will be an issue, if it takes an hour people will think it will be restrictive.
But if you think about it, this could be what are society needs. Make people slow down, take more time, and longer rests. What effect could that have on tired drivers, which I think has a similar fatality rate as drink drivers.
And having watched who killed the electric car, the more I see hydrogen as a distraction, allowing the car & oil companies to say they want to be clean and green
But if you think about it, this could be what are society needs. Make people slow down, take more time, and longer rests. What effect could that have on tired drivers, which I think has a similar fatality rate as drink drivers.
And having watched who killed the electric car, the more I see hydrogen as a distraction, allowing the car & oil companies to say they want to be clean and green
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written by Carl Hage, July 30, 2008
Problem #2 is the biggest right now, and yes we are on the verge of a solution with higher power lighter weight batteries at a comparable low cost. (The EV1's batteries were subsidized by GM.) Plug-in hybrids will be the transition solution. Because you can switch on the gas engine when accelerating, a lower power (cheaper) battery can be used, and a smaller capacity battery good for 90% of trips is fine because you can run on gas after that.
(And you can drive across the country without worrying about a charging station on the highway.)
Batteries are currently $10K for a plug-in, but should come down quickly. Eventually, one of the new battery technologies should be cheap enough for a low cost all-electric car, but in the mean time plug-ins will be cost effective for building mass-production.
My opinion is that H2 cars is a diversion so car companies don't need to change-- no need to change the fuel economy or pollution standards, clean H2 will be here (knowing that it won't be for a century, since batteries are better and cheaper than H2).
(And you can drive across the country without worrying about a charging station on the highway.)
Batteries are currently $10K for a plug-in, but should come down quickly. Eventually, one of the new battery technologies should be cheap enough for a low cost all-electric car, but in the mean time plug-ins will be cost effective for building mass-production.
My opinion is that H2 cars is a diversion so car companies don't need to change-- no need to change the fuel economy or pollution standards, clean H2 will be here (knowing that it won't be for a century, since batteries are better and cheaper than H2).
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written by zeeol, July 30, 2008
Similar case with Monster HDMI cables that nearly exceed $200. Any Best Buy or Futureshop employee can show you that these cables at cost are about $12-$35.
Hell, you probably knew that already...you're a digger.
Hell, you probably knew that already...you're a digger.
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written by Anonymous, July 30, 2008
Everyone seems to forget the fact that most of our electricity comes from fossil fuels anyway.
So...the real energy footprint of an electric car is actually almost equal to the footprint of a car with an internal-combustion engine.
Until we come up with an alternative to gasoline, we will never see electric cars.
So...the real energy footprint of an electric car is actually almost equal to the footprint of a car with an internal-combustion engine.
Until we come up with an alternative to gasoline, we will never see electric cars.
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written by Tex928, July 30, 2008
The man was right who said electricity comes largely from fossil fuels; also, when energy changes forms, like from fossil to electric, some energy is lost in the process; so who are we kidding? My other concern is that if numerous people start charging cars, what will that do to electricity availability and cost. Electricity rates are going up ; my electricity provider wanted to hike my rate from 13 to 18 cents per KWH. Also recognize that electric tech will have to go thru the same learning and improvment cycle ICE did. I won't buy an electric until they are well proven.
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written by rfid, July 30, 2008
You know what, remember Enron? I bet once the general public start buying electric cars, we're gonna have a power crisis. Electric distribution centers will mysteriously have to shut down for 'unknown' causes, public service announcements will tell us to conserve electricity, and prices will sky rocket. I mean, they're already doing it in Los Angeles!
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written by David, July 30, 2008
If a normal car charges its battery with an alternator while the car is on, why can't an electric car charge its batteries while the car is moving? Makes perfect since to me.
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written by videographer, July 30, 2008
...and the fully-electric cars are still on the road today. Check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rav4_ev
There is NOTHING standing in the way of electric cars today except for mass production. And BTW, if you haven't yet seen "Who Killed The Electric Car" you should do so immediately.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rav4_ev
There is NOTHING standing in the way of electric cars today except for mass production. And BTW, if you haven't yet seen "Who Killed The Electric Car" you should do so immediately.
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written by George Ou, July 30, 2008
Problem 4, where do you get the electricity? Right now, that would mean burning a lot more coal because environmental nuts won't permit us to use the greenest form of energy which is Nuclear. Don’t tell me solar because 10% conversion efficiency and astronomical panel costs just don’t compute. Don’t tell me wind because it just isn’t enough. Don’t tell me biofuels because that’s a crime against humanity with rising food costs and a crime against the environment because more rain forests have to get chopped down.
Electric cars by the time you count the transmission loss and the charger loss ends up polluting more. It's just that the pollution is moved elsewhere where they burn the coal.
So until you solve the fundamental problem of electric storage, charging time, transmission/charging loss, and electricity production (possibly with a lot more nuclear), you can forget electric cars.
There are gasoline powered cars that get over 200 mph if you really want to save on gas money and reduce pollution, but that assumes people are willing to trade a little safety by sitting in a 600 lb car.
Electric cars by the time you count the transmission loss and the charger loss ends up polluting more. It's just that the pollution is moved elsewhere where they burn the coal.
So until you solve the fundamental problem of electric storage, charging time, transmission/charging loss, and electricity production (possibly with a lot more nuclear), you can forget electric cars.
There are gasoline powered cars that get over 200 mph if you really want to save on gas money and reduce pollution, but that assumes people are willing to trade a little safety by sitting in a 600 lb car.
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written by Chupacabra, July 30, 2008
Because the alternator is being turned by the gasoline motor to produce the electricity.
It would be absolutely pointless to drive an alternator with an electric motor in order to produce - electricity!
It would be absolutely pointless to drive an alternator with an electric motor in order to produce - electricity!
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written by George Ou, July 30, 2008
You hook up a generator to the wheels of the cars and you'll produce less energy than you drain from the car. You'll end up with a car that either can't move or you'll end up with a car that's far less efficient because you've got all that extra gear to crank.
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written by Jmaximus, July 30, 2008
One could have a couple solar panels on the garage roof to charge some batteries during the day while your at work and then they could charge the car up at night. A zero pollution answer.
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written by Rob Meyer, July 30, 2008
Looking over the choices, the best by far is www.xpcarteam.com, with a target price of less than $10k per vehicle. Then the Aptera at $17 with solar powered A/C.
As far as charging, having a ultracapitor at home to trickle charge (using wind/solar) would allow any home to become a recharge station once or twice a day. Drive up to a house with a green light, swipe your debit card and recharge since ultracapacitors can discharge as fast as they can charge. Get rid of filling stations (except in remote areas) and keep driving.
Switching over to 90% electric vehicles would do a lot to reduce our expected $600 billion national debt.
As far as charging, having a ultracapitor at home to trickle charge (using wind/solar) would allow any home to become a recharge station once or twice a day. Drive up to a house with a green light, swipe your debit card and recharge since ultracapacitors can discharge as fast as they can charge. Get rid of filling stations (except in remote areas) and keep driving.
Switching over to 90% electric vehicles would do a lot to reduce our expected $600 billion national debt.
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written by WillG, July 30, 2008
Great article! You hit the nail on the head in several respects. One the big things is that batteries are not the best stores of energy. However, there are hydraulic hybrids. UPS is running a pilot right now, as is Ford. I read about it in an article called "Hybrid Hummer Hums" found here: http://economicefficiency.blog...-hums.html
One last thing about electric cars, battery recycle is neither cheap nor easy. And one really last thing, consider how much additional coal and oil need to be burned to generate the electricity to power all of those electric cars.
One last thing about electric cars, battery recycle is neither cheap nor easy. And one really last thing, consider how much additional coal and oil need to be burned to generate the electricity to power all of those electric cars.
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written by Mops, July 30, 2008
BTW< solar panels are greatly inefficient, and would need huge area of solar panels to charge even 1 car.
But my main post is that most people are wanting their EV's to be competitive with their gasoline counterparts in terms of range, power, luxury, comfort, etc, etc. I thin it's wrong.
Most people use car to get to work. and maybe to supermarket, and maybe some other 'usual' place. so within reason they could estimate that they need to commute, say 30 miles per day. of course there are days when the do far more.
But that's my point... have a little EV that you do your usual commuting in. for everything else like weekend trips and such use your gasoline car....
I do realize that for some people it's not feasible to own two cars. But if people expect EV's to be as good as ICE (which was being developed and improved for over 100 years now), EV's will have a hard time....
But my main post is that most people are wanting their EV's to be competitive with their gasoline counterparts in terms of range, power, luxury, comfort, etc, etc. I thin it's wrong.
Most people use car to get to work. and maybe to supermarket, and maybe some other 'usual' place. so within reason they could estimate that they need to commute, say 30 miles per day. of course there are days when the do far more.
But that's my point... have a little EV that you do your usual commuting in. for everything else like weekend trips and such use your gasoline car....
I do realize that for some people it's not feasible to own two cars. But if people expect EV's to be as good as ICE (which was being developed and improved for over 100 years now), EV's will have a hard time....
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written by Xbox 360 Elite, July 30, 2008
So, electric cars will help with emissions, it might lower gas prices for all the other people not driving one, but it will raise electric prices and still cause people to be in a pinch. Until there's development of an alternative fuel that does not rely on fossil fuel, we are still in trouble.
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written by IamIan, July 30, 2008
Even after counting the pollution from the electric grid and the losses of distribution and the losses of charging ...etc...etc... EVs are still cleaner than gasoline cars are... one centrally located power facility is much more cost effective and efficient than thousands or millions of small distributed systems... that is why we have power stations instead of every home having its own generator... most power plants are more than twice as efficient as cars are ... even powering the EVs with Gasoline power plants would use less gasoline than gasoline engines in cars... centrally located power plants also have the side benefits of being much easier and cheaper to inspect and regulate for environmental compliance with laws, and for upgrades to greener power generation... as the centrally located power plants get upgraded to greener power ever EV automatically gets the benefit.
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written by chronomatic, July 31, 2008
For city only operation, three to four homeless people could be used to provide power for the average vehicle. Power could be obtained from a treadmill, or pedal cranks.
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written by Parker, July 31, 2008
Our energy intenstive auto-centric suburban living argangment is part of the problem. Life for most people would be much improved if the places we lived were people scaled and not car scaled. (Like most of the rest of the world)
When I saw the title I thought one word - batteries. You should not talk about lithium-ion as if it's one thing. The lightest lithiums LiCo(and variant Lithium polymor) are not very safe for cars. LiMn and LiFepo4 are promising but blukyer and still expensive.
The best option for an EV right now is a motercycle conversion. It's much lighter than a car and you can convert existing bikes so you don't have to use energy to make a new one.
Also, check out this guy how just embarked on a coast to coast trip across Canada on an electric bike a few days ago - http://ebikes.ca/ good stuff.
When I saw the title I thought one word - batteries. You should not talk about lithium-ion as if it's one thing. The lightest lithiums LiCo(and variant Lithium polymor) are not very safe for cars. LiMn and LiFepo4 are promising but blukyer and still expensive.
The best option for an EV right now is a motercycle conversion. It's much lighter than a car and you can convert existing bikes so you don't have to use energy to make a new one.
Also, check out this guy how just embarked on a coast to coast trip across Canada on an electric bike a few days ago - http://ebikes.ca/ good stuff.
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written by Mightyfletch, July 31, 2008
All of these posts are irrelevant with the perendev magnetic motor that requires no fuel. It runs on natural magnets. I'm surprised this subject has not been discussed here.
www.perendev-power.com
www.perendev-power.com
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written by bob bobberson, July 31, 2008
mightyfletch your product doesn't do anything. The website has a bunch of renderings that don't even show a product. At Best it will run for a long time without showing apparent decline in power. They probably ran those 'motors' (I won't even call it that because real motors do work) those Toys with very little friction and make it appear that they can run fine without any more inputs.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Perendev_Power_Developments_Pty_(Ltd)
No Perpetual Motion, No Fee Lunch! (unless you are properly dressed you can usually just walk into any convention hall and grab some freebies and walk right out w/o anyone stopping you)
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Perendev_Power_Developments_Pty_(Ltd)
No Perpetual Motion, No Fee Lunch! (unless you are properly dressed you can usually just walk into any convention hall and grab some freebies and walk right out w/o anyone stopping you)
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written by Kontol, July 31, 2008
That magnetic motor is pure snake oil, a fantasy.
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written by Ken Roberts, August 02, 2008
An electric-powered motor IS a magnetic motor. You use the electric current to induce a magnetic field, thus turning the wheel or shaft. Permanent magnets alone can't do it, because magnets only produce energy when in motion. So really they only transfer energy from one form to another, such as from electrical to mechanical or vice versa.
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written by Stephen, August 02, 2008
In my opinion the problem #3 is still keeping many people from using electric cars (me as well). But in other ways, I don't find any disadvantages. I also heard about running car on water (hydrogen), is it a good idea?
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written by haggar, August 03, 2008
And who has looked at the "air-car" developped in France and reputed to being tooled up for production by Tata Motors of India. A hundred of them are being tested as urban taxis in France.
It runs on compressed air, a common enough product, and can self charge its tanks in 4 hours (or in 4 minutes from a compressed air distributor)and run 200 miles between refills. It uses compressed air as a fuel and yields air as an exhaust. How green can U get ?
It runs on compressed air, a common enough product, and can self charge its tanks in 4 hours (or in 4 minutes from a compressed air distributor)and run 200 miles between refills. It uses compressed air as a fuel and yields air as an exhaust. How green can U get ?
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written by eboy, August 03, 2008
Buy a good 'candidate car' and have someone do a conversion for you. Electric cars are brilliant for city dwellers. Using an existing car means a smaller footprint. As mentioned those who have 2 cars the one for errands and commute and other for long trips.
The low maintenance costs of e.v.s is very disturbing to car culture. Fewer mechanics and fewer parts that are designed to break down (functional obsolescence) Having batteries means that any generation from wind (at day or night) or solar is sweet.
Ignore the retort from naysayers that demand 100% satisfaction at the get go. Which of course doesn't exist with cars. The environmental consequences of b.a.u. are now evident.
And of course, plant a garden.
The low maintenance costs of e.v.s is very disturbing to car culture. Fewer mechanics and fewer parts that are designed to break down (functional obsolescence) Having batteries means that any generation from wind (at day or night) or solar is sweet.
Ignore the retort from naysayers that demand 100% satisfaction at the get go. Which of course doesn't exist with cars. The environmental consequences of b.a.u. are now evident.
And of course, plant a garden.
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written by EV Driver, August 04, 2008
Look at these two presentations on EVs that you can buy now or that are coming soon:
http://righthandeng.zftp.com/E...2008.ppt
http://www.kutscha.us/PatrickEVPresentation.pdf
http://righthandeng.zftp.com/E...2008.ppt
http://www.kutscha.us/PatrickEVPresentation.pdf
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written by WillG, August 06, 2008
I read a great article about electric cars in London, called "Electric Car Finds its Niche" at http://economicefficiency.blog...niche.html They make sense if you are only going a short distance and not carrying cargo.
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written by kim, August 06, 2008
If a normal car charges its battery with an alternator while the car is on, why can't an electric car charge its batteries while the car is moving? Makes perfect since to me.
Our Prius does exactly that. When going downhill the extra juice made from coasting charges the battery, when braking the extra juice charges the battery. We went on a 450 mile trip this weekend. First 450 miles we got only 53 mpg, coming home we got 57. Not too shabby.
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written by kim, August 06, 2008
One could have a couple solar panels on the garage roof to charge some batteries during the day while your at work and then they could charge the car up at night. A zero pollution answer.
'10 Prius has that planned in already.
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written by BlueBustard, August 09, 2008
Electric cars aren't cheap because there is very little demand. The reasons for the anemic demand are noted in the article and comments above. At this juncture, electric cars are feasible only for city folk who have inexpensive electricity. (That would seem to rule out most East coast cities.) Robert Heinlein dreamt of a "nuclear" battery. But I think that, given the many years and millions of miles of success of America's nuclear navy, a nuclear car would be nifty. At the very least, trains and merchant ships would seem to be reasonable platforms for nuclear power.
Disposal of nuclear waste has become a non-issue for those who are knowledgable. It remains a bugaboo for the superstitious.
Disposal of nuclear waste has become a non-issue for those who are knowledgable. It remains a bugaboo for the superstitious.
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written by Pook, August 12, 2008
"Disposal of nuclear waste has become a non-issue for those who are knowledgable. It remains a bugaboo for the superstitious."
I could be wrong, but im sure they are still just burying it in the ground... landfill-tastic.
While there have been significant advances in lithium ion & polymer batteries over the last few years, charging is still the problem as is the relatively short time these batteries stay in peak condition.
I could be wrong, but im sure they are still just burying it in the ground... landfill-tastic.
While there have been significant advances in lithium ion & polymer batteries over the last few years, charging is still the problem as is the relatively short time these batteries stay in peak condition.
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written by JanPaul Barnard, October 31, 2008
Concerns about coal generated electricity being non-green are only partially valid. Charging your battery at night will be using power that is earthed as there is no use for it. The coalfired utility can not easily turn the powergeneration down when there is less consumption It normally takes 8 hours to fire up such a plant and then it runs fullblast. Using that electricity would at least make better use of the coal burnt.
But better still: Google "Vivian Alberts" for the best news yet. The revolutionary new solar photovoltiac panels invented by Prof Vivian Alberts of Wits ( Johannesburg) University . Little is known- yet- about this new development despite the fact that German & Chinese factories are starting production soon under licence of the first really cost effective electric solar panels which cost 80% less to make . It`s acompletely new way of making an electric solar collector and lightyears ahead of anything else. It only needs light -not direct sun - to work and is much more efficient when it gets very hot in contrast to silicon based units where electron flows are then less efficient.Plaster your roof with them and charge your spare E-car battery for a really carbonfree ride and also for your other power needs.
But better still: Google "Vivian Alberts" for the best news yet. The revolutionary new solar photovoltiac panels invented by Prof Vivian Alberts of Wits ( Johannesburg) University . Little is known- yet- about this new development despite the fact that German & Chinese factories are starting production soon under licence of the first really cost effective electric solar panels which cost 80% less to make . It`s acompletely new way of making an electric solar collector and lightyears ahead of anything else. It only needs light -not direct sun - to work and is much more efficient when it gets very hot in contrast to silicon based units where electron flows are then less efficient.Plaster your roof with them and charge your spare E-car battery for a really carbonfree ride and also for your other power needs.
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written by Matthew Crumpler, December 01, 2008
Super caps are need for more than just cars. Storage is one of the biggest limits to green energy.
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written by wedding dresses, October 13, 2009
And though we can't do it today, five years down the road, the future of electric cars will look a lot brighter.
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