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Honda / Toyota: Inflated Mileage


The EPA has changed the is ultram legal to buy online way it calculates mileage in vehicles in America. The result? Some pretty drastic changes.

Mileage for the tramadol overnight delivery Prius has dropped from 60/51 mpg city/hwy all the way to 48/45 mpg while the Honda Civic hybrid dropped from 49/51 mpg to 40/45. The change reflects the difference in testing environments, of course, but Sam Abuelsamid at AutoBlogGreen reports that there could be another reason there was such a significant drop.

Hybrid cars can be tuned to perform well in specific environments. They are largely computer controlled, and how the hybrid drive train operates is up to where can i get viagra pills the engineers that create the usefull link generic viagra without prescription car. Abuelsamid speculates that engineers at Honda and buy viagra online for less money Toyota tweaked the computer control specifically for the EPA test. The result was inflated mileage and decreased real-world efficiency.

Seems more like something American automakers would do? Apparently not, the Ford Escape Hybrid only dropped from 36/31 to 31/29.

Via AutoBlogGreen
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Comments (28)Add Comment
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written by JML, May 31, 2007
Thanks for this article. It serves as a reminder that even ingenuity of the eco-conscious kind can be tainted by scheming business heads.
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written by Mark, May 31, 2007
Hank,
Good spot, we're going to have to be more vigilant about massaged mpg and carbon footprint claims.

Do you know if the EPA have any teeth to prosecute cheats?

In the UK, BSI (a standards body) are working with government to produce a standard way of measuring the carbon impact of goods and services.
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written by kari, May 31, 2007
a really interesting article! this is one of the reasons why I love the internets: you can check self-reporting mileage for hybrids, like here:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
obviously self-reporters will have more of 40 mg levitra an interest in driving efficiently (read: slowly) than others, so they're still probably skewed a little high, but are probably a better judge of efficiency than EPA conditions!
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written by dave, May 31, 2007
I am a Prius owner & I get 48 (winter) to 52 (summer) mpg on the highway IF i set the buy tramadol capsules cruise control at the speed limit (+5 mph if i am in a hurry) and stay in the right lane. Aggressive driving reduces the efficiency quite a bit. 45 mpg in the city is typical, as you use more gas in a stop & go environment. The greater highway mileage has been very consistent over the 2 years i have owned my Prius.
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written by Sam Abuelsamid, June 01, 2007
As always your mileage may vary. One point I made in my post was that even with the reduction in ratings the Prius and Civic still get excellent economy. The tweaking of configurations to maximize the wow)) buy viagra in new zealand numbers is not a new practice. GM has done it with the 1-4 skip shift transmission in the Corvette for years. The nature of hybrids allows for a little more manipulation but any time there is a known test cycle the vehicle can be optimized to plaisirdecreer.be do well on it.
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Stupid...
written by Brenton, June 01, 2007
I'm so sick of people crying about EPA ratings. "I'm a stupid, inefficient, wasteful driver and the www.chemistswithoutborders.org EPA doesn't reflect my stupidity," boo, hoo, hoo. You aren't born with the ability to drive, you have to learn how to drive. You're also not born with the ability to manage your fuel economy either. You have to learn that as well. The EPA rating is only a benchmark; something to shoot for.

Personally, I have a Honda Insight CVT with 70k+ miles on it, and have 59.6 LMPG. This is almost 4 MPG more that the EPA rating. And, I have only been improving my LMPG year over year; currently I average 64.5 MPG for the last year and a half.

If you really want to improve your millage, follow these efficiency steps. If you own a CVT Honda Hibrid, try some of these tips and www.way2age.com tricks to leverage your technology.
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engineering
written by odograph, June 01, 2007
Ah, first thing, 48 -> 40 is a 17% reduction. From 36 -> 31 is a 14% reduction. Not a huge difference if you run the numbers.

You are hanging this on the difference between 14 and 17?

Anyway, as an engineer who has worked in medical, environmental, and computer fields ... it would surprise me if ANY product was designed WITHOUT an eye on the tests it would face. In the medical field it was "first result" and "tests per hour" ... which sounds good, but had implications for throughput at partial workload.

Anyway, let's assume for a moment that all "economy cars" are designed to score well in "economy tests." I'd say, as an engineer, that hybrids are going to be more tweak-able. That's because, by their nature, they have more computer control than a non-hybrid. You can't, as an example, decide when to turn the engine off in a Ford Escort.

So don't blame them for "racing to the rule" (as they say in sailing, etc.). Just look for real world results, for all cars, and compare those.

I get 48-50mpg on all my Prius tanks right now, but I tried in this post to explain the real world factors. Trip length matters!
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Links
written by Brenton, June 01, 2007
Looks like my links were removed, here they are again:
http://www.brentonklik.com/?p=134
http://www.brentonklik.com/?p=170
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link
written by odograph, June 01, 2007
The link to my mpg piece:

http://odograph.com/?p=543
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Either way, they get crap mileage
written by Tod Brilliant, June 01, 2007
Even at 60, for all the hype, the Prius is very far from impressive. In fact, the 1988 Geo Metro dusted it with a real world highway MPG of 60MPH, as do several current makes of Peugot. The hybrids are a distraction, nothing more. They certainly aren't going to help reduce emissions by 90% by 2030, as we need to do. Heck, they spew only 4% less emissions than a diesel Jetta. For the money, grab the Jetta, keep your 48MPG and donate the other $10K to the Earth Policy Network or another organization that is trying like mad to make REAL reductions.

Oh, and stop being so darned brand loyal. No reason to defend Toyota or Honda - they aren't your friends, they don't give a damn about climate change and they don't care what you think. Brand loyalty is for the mentally weak. YOU (ecogeeks, ecowarriors) should be way beyond this.
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written by Bund Teddy, June 01, 2007
I see the media's assault on hybrids, and specifically Japanese hybrids, continues. This time we have a new way they're twisting numbers to reach the conclusion that somehow those "wily" Japanese are unethically gaming the system, while the moral and good Americans are being more honest.

But let's look at what's really going on here.

If you take the old numbers and compare them with the new numbers, you can estimate the viagra label number of 5mg viagra gallons of gasoline one would consume over a given number of miles and compare that with the old and new EPA numbers. The EPA uses 15,000 miles/yr as their assumption when calculating fuel costs etc, so we'll use that.

Over 15,000 miles, here's the "extra" gallons that will be consumed using the new numbers versus the old numbers:
Toyota Prius..... 53
Honda Civic Hybrid..... 57
Escape Hybrid FWD..... 59
Escape Hybrid 4WD..... 72

Looks like it's the wily Americans who are the ones who were fudging. Or maybe it's not about fudging and just that the testing procedure changed and viagra lowest price generic now we can see what the results are.

Another interesting thing is that the numbers at Greenhybrid for these 4 vehicles come in between 1 and 2 mpg better than the new EPA standard, with the exception of the Civic numbers, which are about 4 mpg better. Looks like Honda's getting screwed the worst with these revisions.
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written by Bund Teddy, June 01, 2007
Even at 60, for all the hype, the Prius is very far from impressive. In fact, the 1988 Geo Metro dusted it with a real world highway MPG of 60MPH

There was no Geo Metro in 1988. It came out in 1989.

The high mileage (XFi) version of it was rated 53/58/55. So it got worse city mileage, better highway mileage, and the same combined mileage as the buy viagra at a discount Prius. Under the new standards, the combined mileage on it drops to 46 mpg -- again, the same as the Prius. This is hardly "dusting" it.

You're also neglecting the fact that the Metro put out 49 horsepower, weighed 1621 pounds, and was the size of a leprechaun's thumb. It also was crap for quality, had the very rudiments of safety equipment and emissions of the day. No one in their right mind would consider it a comparable vehicle to the current Prius, which is twice as heavy, twice as powerful, much safer, much higher quality, has unbelievably low emissions, and is much much bigger.

as do several current makes of Peugot.

Not in the US.

The hybrids are a distraction, nothing more. They certainly aren't going to help reduce emissions by 90% by 2030, as we need to do.

And Peugot's and Geo Metro's are?

Heck, they spew only 4% less emissions than a diesel Jetta.

Once again, you are so far off base it's not even worth considering. CO2 is not the only emission from the tailpipe, and that's why there isn't even a diesel Jetta for sale at this point in time -- it can't meet current emission standards. Regardless, the Jetta diesel with automatic comes in at 33 mpg combined -- fully 13 mpg less than the Prius. That translates into an additional 2.4 tons of no prescription cheap viagra CO2 per year.

For the money, grab the Jetta, keep your 48MPG and donate the other $10K to the Earth Policy Network or another organization that is trying like mad to make REAL reductions.

Again, you live in a separate reality. The '06 Jetta TDI with automatic was $22,680. The Prius went for $21,725 in 2006 -- or almost $1,000 less than the Jetta. And that's before the usefull link low cost viagra $3,150 tax credit which was available for the Prius in '06, which would make the Prius $4,105 more affordable than the Jetta. You're off by over $14,000.

Oh, and stop being so darned brand loyal.

That's a great attitude. So, I should just get all my food from Monsanto and ignore my local farmer. No reason to be so darn brand loyal.

No reason to defend Toyota or Honda - they aren't your friends, they don't give a damn about climate change and they don't care what you think.

I can't see how any business is a human's "friend". That would be impossible, wouldn't it? Great cynical attitude you have there.

Brand loyalty is for the mentally weak.

Brand loyalty is often built on tangible things like quality, customer experience, the good or bad the corporation does in the world, etc. It would be "mentally weak" to ignore all that and insult people with such a broad brush for having rational, ethical preferences.

YOU (ecogeeks, ecowarriors) should be way beyond this.

You should grow up. Start by checking your facts first.
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Fact checking
written by Tod Brilliant, June 01, 2007
Geo Metro was first produced (as a rebrand) in 1987. First as a Metro in 1988. U.S. availability isn't germaine in this context. This is a global issue.

Secondly, you seem to consider creature comforts to be equally important to footprint reduction. The Prius would be impressive if it eschewed luxury additions and increased MPG by 10. I know, it's inconvenient to give up the CD player and the AC, but do you give a damn, or do you not?

The TDI mileage figures you give differ greatly from those experienced in the real world by the three TDI drivers I know. Not saying you're dead wrong, only that their cars must be special.

$21K for a new Prius? Wow. You're living in Mexico? At the four dealers in my area, the only one in that price range is an entry-level 2006 with 15000 miles. Not one new car on the lot goes for under $25K, most over that. Not that it matters. . . we can all beat these prices by simply purchasing pre-owned.

Equating brand loyalty to supporting local farmers is disingenuous and a bit odd. Brand loyalty typically references an allegiance to a tradmarked brand or company and canada viagra pharmacies scam is also well-known (read Naomi Klein or related) as a clear symptom of consumer madness. Loyalty is a thick and beautiful human notion, one that should be reserved for those near and dear, not handed over to corporations or (worse) political parties.

This reminds me of conversations had with Apple computer owners after it was discovered that Apple has the worst environmental record of all PC manufacturers. A knee jerk defense that should have focused instead on swamping Apple with complaints from its customer base (this is what I did as I have a pair of Apple computers which I find mediocre, nothing special). Brand loyalists are easy to discover - and I've unearthed one by hitting a sore spot.

What really matters is that we rebuild/reclaim our suburbs, reduce vehicle usage through legislation, reduce speed limits, and start the process of tearing up roads and rebuilding our cities with mass transit as the primary viable option. Sounds pie-in-the-sky but recall that the U.S. highway system (National Highway Defense) and suburbs sprouted in twenty years post WW2. We can fix our greatest national mistake in half that time.

Try Richard Register's 'Eco-Cities' if you feel like lurnin' a bit more.

We either give a damn or we don't. Focusing on the 'freedom' provided by our cars is inane. In my eyes, there isn't much difference between a Prius, a Jetta, and a Hummer. They're all the road to ruin.
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written by Bund Teddy, June 01, 2007
I love how you dispute every objective, verifiable fact laid out and ignore how egregiously off the cialis uk chemist mark pretty much every factual assertion you made is.

We either give a damn or we don't. Focusing on the 'freedom' provided by our cars is inane. In my eyes, there isn't much difference between a Prius, a Jetta, and a Hummer. They're all the road to ruin.

So you've given up using all forms of fossil-fueled automotive transportation? No?
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Yes.
written by Tod Brilliant, June 01, 2007
Yes, I've given up on fossil-fueled transportation. The BIGGEST problem is jet travel, not auto, by the way. I've given up jet travel, which is a huge inconvenience but not the end of levitra tab in indian my world. As for auto transport, I'm working on it, believe you me!

You?
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Ooops
written by Tod Brilliant, June 01, 2007
Forgot to add this jet-related link: http://todbrilliant.com/inconv...y-anymore/

Basically, I'm inviting you into my nest where you can blast me apart there. Heh. I don't have the answers, mate, but we have to collectively tease everything apart if we're going to get them. So for that, Teddy, I thank you. It's all part of the process.

Oh, as for the numbers of CO2 Prius v. Jetta I've seen numbers that conflict with yours. I didn't bother posting as neither you, nor I, nor any readers are likely to know which are the 'right' numbers and do why bother distracting from the conversation so mightily?
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written by Bund Teddy, June 02, 2007
Yes, I've given up on fossil-fueled transportation.

Really? No buses? No diesel-powered trains? No diesel-powered ferries? No cab rides? No car? No truck? No escalators powered from the grid? No scooters? No motorcycles? Just you and your two feet, huh?

The BIGGEST problem is jet travel, not auto, by the way.

Where do you get these notions? Air travel is a fraciton of the global warming impact of surface transportation.

I've given up jet travel, which is a huge inconvenience but not the end of my world.

You've given it up *for now*. How exactly is that commitment binding? Or are you like Monbiot and make exceptions when you feel that your flight is somehow "saving the world"?

As for auto transport, I'm working on it, believe you me!

Wait, so you are convinced there's a catastrophic situation that demands immediate reductions by us all, and despite all your "awareness" and "commitment" you haven't bitten the bullet and recommended site buy levitra where gone without fossil-fueled vehicles after all?

Lead by example.
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2008 Ford Escape Hybrid is 34/30 using n
written by Jongster, June 02, 2007
The 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid FWD is rated at 34/30 city/hwy, using the NEW EPA standards. See
Beats having to drive an anemic Honda Civic hybrid and get just 6 more MPG!
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written by Bund Teddy, June 02, 2007
Oh, as for the numbers of CO2 Prius v. Jetta I've seen numbers that conflict with yours. I didn't bother posting as neither you, nor I, nor any readers are likely to know which are the 'right' numbers and do why bother distracting from the conversation so mightily?

Let's refresh our memories. You said that a Prius puts out 4% less "emissions" (again, ignoring everything out of the tailpipe except CO2 - the reason there is no '07 Jetta TDI) and that the Prius is $10K more than the Jetta. In reality, the Prius is $4,105 cheaper, so you're off by $14K there, and even with numbers most favorable to the Jetta (its fuel economy average at Greenhybrid [42.8] vs. the Prius numbers at Greenhybrid [47.1]), the Jetta will put out 1,614 pounds more CO2 over 15,000 miles than a Prius (26% more). So you're off by a factor of 6-7 on the CO2 thing.

One thing people seem to not know is that the emission coefficient (in lbs CO2 per gallon) for diesel is higher than for motor gasoline (22.4 v. 19.6), so even at the same fuel economy level, diesel puts out 14% more CO2.

All I'm saying is that if you're going to be at the extremes on something (in this case, calling for serious lifestyle changes for everyone), and you come guns blazing into a discussion, it would pay to get your numbers straight. It would also be essential that you get your own house in order before you start demanding others clean up theirs. A woman came to Gandhi with her kid and said, "Tell my child to stop eating sugar." Gandhi said, "Come back in two weeks." She did, and when she came back, said, "OK, please tell my child to stop eating sugar." Gandhi said, "Please stop eating sugar, child." The woman then asked him why she needed to have waited two weeks. Gandhi said, "I had to stop eating sugar."

And keep in mind, you're no Gandhi, and even if you were, there'd still be a lot of kids who would go on eating sugar. The moral high road is treacherous.
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written by Bund Teddy, June 02, 2007
Beats having to drive an anemic Honda Civic hybrid and get just 6 more MPG!

0-60 times (Motor Trend)
================
Honda Civic Hybrid..... 11.3
Ford Escape Hybrid..... 11.7

Real world numbers at Greenhybrid have the Civic Hybrid getting 14 mpg better than the Escape. The EPA's real world numbers have it 12 mpg higher - the same as the difference in the combined fuel economy ratings.

Back to the drawing board for you.
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written by sue, June 02, 2007
Just thought I'd let you know your formating is messed up on this post when viewed with Firefox 2.0.0.4. The main content text runs into the sidebar, with the sidebar elements layered over the top. Looks fine in IE 6.0.
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...
written by Bund Teddy, June 02, 2007
And to address your cynicism that somehow hybrids don't matter, try comparing the real-world fuel economy of recommended site discount viagra viagra the Prius to the average light vehice in America (47.1 v 19.5). If a household were to go from an average fuel economy level to that of a Prius, they would reduce their automotive CO2 output by 12,447 pounds, the equivalent of reducing household electricity consumption by a whopping 76%. Combine that with a carbon-free electricity source for the home, and a family can get their CO2 down 80% or more. Two simple changes, available today.
0
...
written by Jongster, June 02, 2007
0-60 times (Motor Trend)
================
Honda Civic Hybrid..... 11.3
Ford Escape Hybrid..... 11.7

Having actually driven both, I know that the Honda feels far more unfast than the other one. Plus there's a difference between riding a real SUV vs. a subcompact!
0
...
written by Bund Teddy, June 02, 2007
Having actually driven both, I know that the Honda feels far more unfast than the other one.

So?

Plus there's a difference between riding a real SUV vs. a subcompact!

The Escape is not a real SUV, certainly not the FWD version which gets the better mileage. And the Civic is not a subcompact.
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Wow.
written by Tod Brilliant, June 02, 2007
The moral highroad is treacherous?

Let's count you as one who is willing to compromise our childrens' future for the sake of easy choices.

That's cool . . . you're in the clear majority.

My kids will blame you for the world they inherit. You best be ready to take the blame.

0
...
written by Bund Teddy, June 02, 2007
The moral highroad is treacherous?

Yes. He who casts stones and all that. It's the heart if legitimacy, as well as one's ability to influence others.

Let's count you as one who is willing to compromise our childrens' future for the sake of easy choices.

You don't know one bloody thing about how I conduct my life, and there you go making vicious moral judgments out of the blue. Thanks for proving my point. Anytime you want to compare "green cred", I'd be more than happy.

That's cool . . . you're in the clear majority.

You know nothing about me, other than that I can apprehend facts well and don't just buy it when people toss off numbers that have no basis.

My kids will blame you for the world they inherit. You best be ready to take the blame.

Oh, you're going to procreate, Mr. Earthsaver? Lovely.
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written by bloody13, June 02, 2007
Great mileage is every drivers' concern, much more to Automakers like Honda. It's one of the top preferences in car purchasing so Honda must give more attention to it as well as other parts like Honda EGR Valve which contributes to fuel effiency.
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GEO METRO.
written by JOE DUPONT, February 03, 2008
HAD CHEVY COME UP WITH A TWO SEAT REAR ENGINE GEO METRO LIGHTER, LESS DRAG, IT WOULD HAVE EASILY GOTTEN 75 TO 80 MPG.. HAD THEY GONE TO DIESL THE WOULD BE GETTING 100-120 MPG.. BUT THAT WOULD BE TOO EASY.

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